Register of soldier's effects

[pgis]

A very quick question. Can someone tell me what D.D.O Prona on a register of soldier's effects would mean?

Thank you.

Paul.

[corisande]

Paul

 

I think it would help if you gave us the man's name & date of death. The we can see in Soldiers efects any context

[pgis]

Army Register of Soldiers’ Effects

James Liddy, Royal Dublin Fusiliers died 6th September 1916
Effects authorised April 1917 to:
Sister, Mrs Mary J O’Shea
Brother, Patrick
Sister, Mrs Annie Ellis

27.11.1917
D.D.O Prona  Bro. Chas.
These  were all payments of £1.14s 1d

30.10.19
Sister Mary J O’Shea - £3.0.0.
 

[corisande]

Thank you . So it is to do with the division of his estate. I think it is a question of looking at Charles

 

[corisande]

The plot thickens with this Pension Card on Fold 3

 

[Matlock1418]

16 hours ago, corisande said:

The plot thickens with this Pension Card on Fold 3

May perhaps not be too suspicious - but always worth an investigation - there is another pension card as LEDDY 11322

His MIC is as LEDDY too

In this case "Liddy" may just perhaps be a MoP error that got corrected. [though sometimes hard to tell which way round!]

:-) M

 

Edit:  And another pension card as LEDDY - with 7075298 as an alternative RDF number = looks like a post-war number so may/likely be findable under that. It is = https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss={"q":"7075298"}

Doesn't explain DDO Prona though = ???

 

Further edit:

In a later post the OP reveals "James Liddy, service number 24726, 9th Battalion RDF" which I think seems to rule out this 11322 one - and, to be frank, having missed this at first viewing, on further overnight reflection and the MoP reference number 11/ML/1337 on this Liddy/Leddy card rather makes it look like it is for a Disability claim anyway [perhaps the cause of the earlier post - a dead man possibly claiming a disability ?? ;-)].

Edited 18 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit and later further edit

[PRC]

The crossed out line above relating to Brother Charles looks like the payment was possibly going to the Regimental Paymaster at Chatham. Is it possible that the line underneath for brother Charles is actually D.D.O. Poona?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[corisande]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is it possible that the line underneath for brother Charles is actually D.D.O. Poona?

 

Clever that. Having magnified the word, I think it is "Poona"

 

So who is DDO ?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

17 minutes ago, corisande said:

So who is DDO ?

Or what?

Deputy, District , Division, Office(r)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Poona_Divisional_Area

[travers61]

In Nov 1917 there was a Poona District Division of the Indian Army located in India. Also there was a 6th (Poona) Division Indian Army which ceased to exist after the capture of Kut in 1916.

 

So maybe Divisional. ..........   Officer or District ......... Officer

 

For civilian government purposes the City of Poona was also the HQ of the Poona District of the Bombay Presidency.

Edited 17 June , 2021 by travers61

[corisande]

It could be DRAWING AND DISBURSING OFFICER, which is in use in India, but I have no idea if with British Army

 

I would go along with Peter's " looks like the payment was possibly going to the Regimental Paymaster at Chatham.", so it would make sense that the next extry would also be to some sort of Paymaster

 

The RDF had a depot at Chatham, but I don't know of an RDF bat going to India in 1917, though of course he could have been transferred

[Matlock1418]

The payment seems to be going to brother Charles - so was Charles a soldier in Poona?

:-) M

[pgis]

Guys, thanks for all the replies. Although I think I can keep it  simple. With the help of many others, I am confident that I can now prove conclusively who this James Liddy, service number 24726, 9th Battalion RDF is. My reading of the register comment, now that it has been posted by Corisande, is that the brother Charles was late in providing required documentation.

It helped that James' sister Mary Jane married a guy called Sarsfield P O'Shea and I was able to tie his name back to being a  witness at other Liddy family weddings.

Which leads me on to my next question. James appears on CWGC with next to no details. I believe I can now supply the names of his parents, age, next of kin etc. Does anyone know how I go about getting CWGC to add these details to James' entry?

[corisande]

Yes, it says his brother was Charles

 

There is a Charles Liddy, who enlisted in RE in Dublin - with an incomplete service record with no NOK - click  who was paid out of RE Chatham at one point, then sent to India in early 1917

[corisande]

4 minutes ago, pgis said:

I believe I can now supply the names of his parents, age, next of kin etc. Does anyone know how I go about getting CWGC to add these details to James' entry?

 

I think you are going to have to get all the necessary birth, marriage & death certs (fairly easy off online free Irish GRO). AS long as it is watertight, then I think you are there with those certs, but I think you really need them

[PRC]

Just exploring this one through, so indulge me

 

I thought the Royal Engineers had their Records and Pay Office at Chatham.

There is a Medal Index Card for a Sapper 140110 Charles LIDDY, Royal Engineers.

There are surviving Discharge Records for that man. He enlisted at Dublin on the 5th November 1915. Aged 33 and a Carpenter, he had been born St Patricks, Belfast (according to one medicial form) and Dublin City, (according to another)!. Health problems flagged up but not sufficient to stop his enlisting included slight deafness on one side. He did his basic training at Chatham. He was treated in Hospital at Bangalore from the 9th June 1918 to the 6th July 1918, and again from the 29th August 1918 to the 7th November 1918, both times with an inflamation of the middle ear.

 

According to his B.103 he left his "peace station" at Chattenden on the 28th July 1916 and boarded ship at Devonport on the 31st. He disembarked Bombay on the 4th September 1916, re-embarked Bombay on the 16th and reached Basrah (Mesopotamia) on the 23rd, He joined up with the 72nd Field Company, Royal Engineers, "in the field" on the 21st October 1916.

There are then various periods of sickness and ill-health throughout 1917, where he seems to have initially been treated in country. But in August 1917 he was invalided to India. He doesn't appear to have returned to Mesopotamia. He was discharged to Army Reserve "Z" on the 13th May 1919, giving his permanent address as 35 St Peters Road, Dublin. I had a very quick flit through but couldn't see any next of kin details, so can't be certain this is James Liddy's brother.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edit - just seen I've cross-posted with @corisande - apologies

 

 

Edited 17 June , 2021 by PRC

[Matlock1418]

 

1 hour ago, pgis said:

Does anyone know how I go about getting CWGC to add these details to James' entry?

I think you'll need a lot of luck with that one.

I usually go via the enquiries desk e-mail = enquiries @ cwgc.org [remove the spaces]

I don't think CWGC are particularly keen on adding details - though they may correct errors if the evidence makes the strong case.

And sometimes they will add a "Served as"/Alias - but again you will have to make a strong case.

And not least because he is on a memorial - and those traditionally have fewer contemporary details on the web commemoration

[I think usually because at the time not so much contact with the next of kin who might otherwise be looking for an inscription if he had had a headstone instead]

Interesting there is also no Panel Schedule on his web commemoration page - there surely must be one.

Speculating - Without having all the details - it is just possible that he might have served as Leddy and family got it changed to Liddy at some stage [early or late I can't possibly gauge] - there a a number of reasons the CWGC may not be keen to change or update things. 

Their back-of-house records may enlighten. 

But perhaps they might do something - For example, when applicable, I have known them to add "His brother ***** also served and died" and also add a familial/diminutive forename e.g. "John [Jack]" etc. based on contemporary evidence later presented.

And of course they really to seem to especially like to go with the then contemporary NoK's wishes - after all, otherwise you may later be re-writing history.

But you never know until you have contacted CWGC!

:-) M

 

Edit: For NoK [usually parental, but if not then a sibling(s)] - I suppose there might just be a Next of Kin Verification form at CWGC [not showing online], but ... ???

Probably worth asking CWGC at: enquiries @ cwgc.org [remove the spaces] - Won't cost, so why not first give it a go and ask?

Edited 17 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
expand & edit

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

just seen I've cross-posted

 

Yes I read his service record several times, on Ancestry and on FmP (just in case one had included the NOK page, but neither had)

 

The circumstantial evidence is that this is Jame's brother Charles but not enough to prove it.

 

More important to OP (given that Charles has no NOK) is the link to James' sisters and their marriages, As I said if all the B, M and D certs cross-tie then we are there. And OP says he can do that

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, pgis said:

My reading of the register comment, now that it has been posted by Corisande, is that the brother Charles was late in providing required documentation.

 

If you are referring to the pencil anotation at the bottom, I would take it that payment authorisation had provisionally been sent to Poona pending the return of the authority to pay from Chatham. As it was all "in-house", so to speak, I suspect this caused less issue than if a payment order had been sent to an address that the receiver had moved from and alleged they no longer had access to.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

I think  @pgis has these already, but these are the documentation that ties it together

 

1901 census, the family is at 37 Amiens St, Dublin

 

 

Then the two sisters marry from that address from the Irish GRO

 

 

and

 

[pgis]

PRC. Sorry, I don't know how to do the QUOTE thing.

You stated you had found  a Medal Index Card for a Sapper 140110 Charles LIDDY, Royal Engineers, but were not sure if he was a brother of the James Liddy we were discussing. I think he definitely is a brother. The Charles Liddy who was the brother of James Liddy was born in Belfast in 1881 and was baptised in St Patrick's Church Belfast. He was a carpenter by trade as shown in 1911 census when he was living at St Peter's Road Dublin with his brother . These details all fit in with the Royal Engineers soldier, as does his age of 33 at time of enlisting in 1915(well almost). Thanks for finding and sharing the record for Charles Liddy.

Paul.

 

[pgis]

Corisande, sorry I forgot to thank you for posting the documents which prove James Liddy the soldier who died on 6th September 1916 was the James Liddy who was part of the Liddy family from 37 Amiens Street Dublin.

Thank you.

Paul.

[Matlock1418]

58 minutes ago, pgis said:

PRC. Sorry, I don't know how to do the QUOTE thing.

Just use @ and immediately after start to type the members name [no space after the @] - e.g. @PRCand up will pop a selection of options.

Choose and use one and the named will get a notification that you have mentioned them.

PRC will do so now - so should more quickly see your mention & thanks above.

Also @corisandewill likewise now more quickly see your thanks.

;-) M

Edited 19 June , 2021 by Matlock1418

[pgis]

Thanks M.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, pgis said:

PRC. Sorry, I don't know how to do the QUOTE thing.

 

No worries @pgis

 

Gut feel was that it was the brother of James, there was just nothing in the surviving paperwork for Charles Liddy that could be considered a "smoking gun" that definately linked the two.

I was even more tummy certain after I saw the 1901 Census of Ireland extract posted by @corisande, but I've been doing genealogy too long to treat it as totally proved on the basis of just that one document. You can never rule out the power of co-incidence to come back and bite you!

 

Glad I could help,

Peter