Taylor wounded St Julien 31 July 1917 and/or on HMHS Essequibo on 1 August 1918

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I am trying to identify a G. Taylor who was wounded at St Julien on 31 July 1917.

In late July 1918 my grandfather broke his ankle while serving on the front line in France, which resulted in him being invalided back to Britain as a “lying-down case” in the Hospital Ship Essequibo on 1 August 1918.

In his diary he wrote:

“Taylor in the next cot to me had one arm and one leg – poor chap – but very cheery and full of beans at the thought of at last getting to Blighty after many months at No 2 B.R.C.”

Interleaved in the diary at this point there is a postcard of HMHS Essequibo. On the reverse of the postcard, where the address should be, is written “August 1917, G. Taylor, Wounded St Julien 31st July 1917”.

The date “August 1917” may perhaps suggest that the postcard was not from my grandfather’s crossing on the vessel in August 1918, that “G. Taylor” was not the man who had lost an arm and a leg despite having the same surname as him, and that my grandfather may have acquired the postcard from a G. Taylor at a later date; alternatively, is it possible that “August 1917” was a slip of the pen for “August 1918”, and that the Taylor who had lost an arm and a leg wrote his name and date and place of wounding on the card before giving it to my grandfather in the next cot? If the latter, Taylor would have been in hospital in France before crossing back to Britain not just for “many months”, but for a full year. Is this possible?

I have assumed that invalids on the Hospital Ship would be segregated into officers and other ranks, and that therefore, as my grandfather was a captain at the time, Taylor was probably an officer, but is my assumption correct?

If my assumption is correct, then you would expect the Taylor who had lost an arm and a leg to be mentioned by name in the WD of his unit when he was wounded.

I am aware that the 118^th Brigade was involved in the engagement at St Julien on 31 July 1917, and I have had a look at the WDs of the battalions of that brigade, but have not come across mention of a Taylor being wounded.

In which other WDs might I usefully look? Or, might it be a more fruitful exercise to look in the pension or Silver War Badge records for a Taylor who lost an arm and a leg (to which, unfortunately, I don’t have access)?

Any help with this would be gratefully received.

[TEW]

Difficult one when there are two possible dates. Slip of the pen was my first thought but as you say why the many months which was actually a year?

 

Officer segregation sounds probable  but that would have to mean they have cot & sitting quarters for officers & men. Perhaps mixing ranks was sometimes required in order to have full load?

 

Have you tried 2 BRC diaries? WO95/4111/6 for July 17 through to 4111/8 for July 1918. If Taylor was there for a year he must have been a bit touch and go and may get a mention.

 

A wound of that type would warrant an entry in the Official Casualty List. Problem there is the online coverage, I have access that covers 1917 but not 1918. FMP should have 1918 but I'm not 100% on that, or NLS have them (free) but no search function AFAIK.

 

I'm seeing 23 G. Taylors for Aug/Sept 1917 but no officers. If he's a G (another initial) Taylor that changes things. There is EG. 2nd Lt. GW Taylor, RGA for Aug 1917.

 

Officers were eligible for a SWB but frequently didn't apply. If he was ordinary rank there's likely to be 100's of G Taylors with a discharge date post Aug 1917 with nothing to tie them directly.

 

Were there possible actions around St. Julien in July 1918 as well as July 1917? Without a specific year or rank it seems a bit like trying to find a needle in two haystacks.

TEW

 

 

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 17/06/2021 at 00:35, TEW said:

Have you tried 2 BRC diaries? WO95/4111/6 for July 17 through to 4111/8 for July 1918. If Taylor was there for a year he must have been a bit touch and go and may get a mention.

Thank you, Tew, for your suggestions. I am going to start with the No 2 BRC WDs. I had not realised that these existed. As my grandfather was himself admitted to No 2 BRC on three occasions, it will be interesting, as well as looking for Taylor, to read the entries around the dates when my grandfather was there, though I don't expect him to be mentioned by name.

By the way, what do NLS and AFAIK stand for?

[TEW]

NLS = National Library of Scotland.

 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

 

AFAIK = As far as I know!

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Tew.

Having followed the NLS link, it seems to me that it will be an impossible task to find a relevant entry without a search function, but thanks for the link anyway.

I have begun reading the 2 BRC WDs, but am struggling with more acronyms or similar, and wonder whether you can help again.

The following appear quite frequently, always followed by a name or names of officers, usually complete with details of their unit and details of the injury/ailment:

TIFEVISIT

IDEEPAW

IDEISABATE

IDEENLAND

IDEENTRANS

IDEENRENG

IDEIESMO

IDLEJACK or IDELJACK

Do you know what any of these mean?

Tricia

 

Edited 2 October , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[TEW]

Can't say any of those jump out with an obvious meaning. If you could do a snapshot and post a section it may help with some context.

Just to cover yourself, cite TNA as the image source.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

TEW, attached are images of four pages of the 2 BRC WD, courtesy of the National Archives. These have a few samples of some of the abbreviations or codes that I mentioned in my last post. I have chosen these dates because they include the date (1 August 1918) on which my grandfather was crossing the channel on HMHS Essequibo in the company of the Taylor who had been at 2 BRC for many months, leaving Le Havre at 10.00pm.

I hope that you can open and read the attachment. I am afraid that the original is not very clear. I have done my best to improve the legibility when scanning it. 

 If you can read it you will see that a Captain T.T. Taylor AVC is mentioned three times in the attached extract as follows:

30 July 1918: IDEEPAW

31 July  1918: IDEENTRANS

1 August 1918: IDEENTRANS

The only other thing worth mentioning is that IDEENLAND appears in this thread https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/197654-sender-of-telegram-proclicas-can-anyone-identify/?tab=comments#comment-2385576 though it is not fully explained there, apart from apparently being a medical term. It does not feature in any of the pages I have attached, but crops up quite frequesntly in the  2BRC WD.

Any ideas??

Tricia

2BRC WD0001.pdf

 

Edited 7 July , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct Captain Taylor's initials fro E.E. to T.T.

[TEW]

I've looked through the diary you uploaded and have to say the below is partly guesswork! The odd entries are:

IDEERENG, IDEETRANS, IDEEPAW, IDEISMO, IDEENLAND, IDLEJACK AND TIFEVISIT. You noted that IDEENLAND crops up in another post in the context of a telegram.
It certainly makes sense in terms of EG. IDEEPAW being the telegraphic office code for a receiving office.
I do have to wonder why they bothered to include that information in a diary. The entries relate to certain officers but only a small number. For example, 31/7/1918 they admitted 30 British officers, 2 RAF & 2 SA officers. They transferred in from other hospitals 4 officers (which seems to be different to admitted), discharged 8 officers and transferred 17 officers to ambulance trains. Despite those numbers only 3 officers were worthy of a telegram code.

As you noted Capt. T T Taylor AVC is noted three times with the codes, Initially an IDEEPAW then he gets an IDEETRANS for 31/7/18 and again 1/8/1918. Transfer would seem an obvious choice for IDEETRANS but why two days on the trot? Plus they were transferring much larger numbers of officers than those with a IDEETRANS telegram.

TIFEVISIT. Visit grabbed my attention as I wondered if these were officers with serious wounds that were not expected to live. In these cases NOK were informed and they were allowed to visit.

Those with a TIFEVISIT code are:
Capt. T Furnell, Lt. BB Mackinnon, Capt. F Underhill, 2nd/Lt. NF Galbraith and 2nd/Lt. JW Thompson. Again, Galbraith gets two mentions for TIFEVISIT and one IDEISMO. I see from the diary and CWGC that Furnell, Mackinnon and Thompson did in fact die at 2 BRC so their wounds must have been serious, Underhill is listed as multiple wounds and Galbraith is GSW leg left but both survived the war.

Some of the officers with an IDEE or TIFE code could well have surviving records which might help explain their exact meaning but I think a telegram receiving office is the most likely.

I moved on and looked again at your original query regarding G. Taylor and the dates, postcard etc. on the Essequibo. Ive looked at some other diaries regarding ambulance train (AT) movements from 2BRC and Rouen in general and their destinations.

HMAT Essequibo left Le Havre at 22.00 31/7/1918 and arrived Southampton 2/8/1918.
2 BRC discharged 16 British Officers to England on 31/7/1918 by 8 AT which arrived at Le Havre 13:30 31/7/1918 but loaded the wounded onto HMAT Panama.

2 BRC loaded 28 British officers, 1 Canadian and 2 RAF officers onto 34 AT for England early morning of 1/8/1918. They arrived at Le Havre 12:40 and unloaded. The Essequibo is not mentioned here but the numbers of officers loaded onto the Essequibo matches the total arriving from Rouen.

The 28 British, 1 Canadian and 2 RAF officers loaded onto 34 AT by 2 BRC were joined by another 14 officers from other hospitals in Rouen for the journey. For officers only, the numbers on the train were 25 cot cases and 20 sitting cases, the same number were loaded onto Essequibo. Things are a little different for ordinary ranks (ORs). None were loaded by 2 BRC but 354 were loaded in Rouen, 129 were added to these in Le Havre and the Essequibo left Le Havre with the 45 officers and 483 ORs. (278 ORs cot cases).

I've not been able to establish if Officers and ORs were separated but I think thats highly probable which makes G Taylor an officer. You say in the OP that Taylor was wounded 31/7/1917 and the Essequibo postcard says August 1917 although the Essequibo passage was 1/8/1918. Either there's been a slip of the pen or theres two different voyages. The Essequibo remained in Southampton from 31/7/1917 to 4/8/1917 so there was no crossing 1/8/1917.

Then theres the problem of G. Taylor wounded St Julien 31/7/1917 and G Taylor mentioned again on the postcard of the Essequibo dated Aug 1917 and your Grandfathers mention of Taylor in the next cot etc. 1/8/1918 having spent months at 2 BRC.

Either some dates are muddled up or theres two crossings with your Grandfather and two Taylors (all in cots) on the Essequibo, It seems too coincidental? It should be possible to see if your Grandfather was wounded June/July 1917, can you give his details?

It could be that Taylor in the next cot etc. 1/8/1918 is simply not mentioned in the 2BRC diary at all but is one of the 28 loaded (or the Canadian, RAF) onto 34 AT 1/8/1918 along with your Grandfather. Unfortunate that Capt. T T Taylor AVC has no wounds given in the diary extract. He does show on a casualty list of 15/6/1918 so may have been wounded mid-May 1918 but does that account for the many months at 2 BRC?

Have you checked backwards from Aug 1918 for any other mentions of T T Taylor and the details of his injuries. He is I think Tom Taylor Taylor who has an officer record at TNA, not to be confused I think with Thomas Taylor Taylor, Cameronians! Regarding Capt. T T Taylor AVC, his MIC does not show SWB eligible which it should if missing an arm & leg.

You mentioned having looked through 118 infantry brigade diaries to look for G Taylor wounded St. Julien July 1917. You could check the 39th Divisions Veterinary diaries which are:

ADVS WO95/2573/3 and 50 Mobile Veterinary Section WO95/2579/4 to see if a Captain T T Taylor is mentioned. I dont know what other divisions were at St. Julien July 1917 but those would have diaries as well.

Apologies for the long post!
TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

No need to apologise for the long post, Tew, quite the contrary, but it has a lot in it, and I'm going to have to take it a bit at a time. I shall follow up on your suggestions, and post again if they reveal any answers to the questions I have posed. Thank you!

[TEW]

I actually missed out some information on 2/Lt. W Battison as he is Battinson in the 2BRC diary.

His story is, wounded 20/7/18 GSW chest & spine. He has IDEERENG at 2/BRC 30/7/18. Then he is in an MH106 admission book for Millbank UK. Can't view the Findmypast entry but the date is before 22/9/18.

He died 13/10/18 and is buried in Stirling.

Pretty serious injury and the IDEERENG would seem to relate to his return to England?

I'd like to put money on his admission to Millbank very early August (immediately after the IDEERENG) which may mean he was also on Essequibo.

He also has an officers' file at TNA.

I looked at the two diaries I mentioned and saw no Taylors for July 1917.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

 

On 06/07/2021 at 10:30, TEW said:

I actually missed out some information on 2/Lt. W Battison as he is Battinson in the 2BRC diary.

His story is, wounded 20/7/18 GSW chest & spine. He has IDEERENG at 2/BRC 30/7/18. Then he is in an MH106 admission book for Millbank UK. Can't view the Findmypast entry but the date is before 22/9/18.

He died 13/10/18 and is buried in Stirling.

Pretty serious injury and the IDEERENG would seem to relate to his return to England?

Thank you again, Tew, interesting.

I have been mulling over this and what you said in your longer post, and also re-reading part of the 2 BRC diary.

I am not at all sure that these codes can be just receiving telegraphic offices, for the reason you say. Why would they bother to record information of that type in the diary?

Even in the other thread https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/197654-sender-of-telegram-proclicas-can-anyone-identify/?tab=comments#comment-2385576 I am not sure that it was definitely concluded that IDEENLAND was the code for a telegraphic receiving office, but that is perhaps owing to my ignorance as to what text a telegram would actually have contained (i.e., would it always have started with the code for the receiving office?), and also as to whether the contents of the telegram were quoted in full in that other case.  Perhaps @ss002d6252 can help with the latter (the link he put in his post in that thread does not seem to work for me)? We also don't have the full contents of the other telegram which contained the word IDEENLAND referred to by @KPHin that thread, but perhaps she can help with this if she is still contactable through this site? I don't have access to Ancestry check the record of Gunner 810622 Frederick Mann, I'm afraid.

With regard to what I have found by re-reading portions of the 2 BRC WD, The acronyms or codewords began to be used only with effect from 15 February 1917, WO-95-4111-5, the first one being IDEEPAW. That is applied to three officers, Lieut J.G.W. Weedon 18th AIF, GSW amp[utatio]n thigh, 2/Lt S.T.Stephens 2/Devons Pneumonia, and 2/Lt J.G. Frew 14/ A[rgyll] & S[utherland] H[ighlande]rs, the latter with no medical details.

All three have been mentioned earlier in the diary  as being "placed on the dangerously ill list", Weedon on 16 January 1917, Stephens on 8 February 1917, and Frew on 9 February 1917 (from which we learn that the latter's life-threatening condition was "appendicitis, complication pelvic peritonitis".

There is no hint in the diary of what IDEEPAW means, but on the next three occasions in which strange initials are used, words appear after them which just may be translations for staff not yet used to using them. In fact, I think that the letters "i.e." may appear between the initials and the long hand words in two of the three entries.

These three entries are an entry on 7 February 1917 "IDEENRENG Transferred dangerously ill to England 2/Lt J.G. Stuart 5/Scottish Rifles GSW Spine", and two entries on 23 February 1917 "TIFEVISIT i.e.[?] Placed on dang[erously] ill list Lieutenant Macdonald 1/2nd Canadians GSW Leg, and "IDELJACK i.e.[?] Transferred home dangerously ill Lieut C,D.G. Deen RHA amputation R[ig]t leg and left foot".

Thereafter the acronyms/code words continue to be used but never again, so far as I can see, with anything that looks like a possible translation.

It is, however, noteworthy that up to 15 February 1917, the words "placed on dangerously ill list" have appeared quite frequently accompanied by names of individual officers together with details of their medical problem, but after 15 February 1917 this phrase no longer appears, so it seems fair to assume that in some way the acronyms/codewords have replaced these words.

it is also noteworthy that prior to 15 February 1917 it is quite common for there to be a record of relatives visiting dangerously ill patients, but that too stops with effect from 15 February 1917, suggesting that either it was no longer thought necessary to keep a record, or the acronyms/code words have taken the place of that record.

Also in the earlier part of the diary there is very often a record of someone being moved off the dangerously ill list, or, inevitably, someone who was on the dangerously ill list dying. The latter continues to be recorded long hand with the time of death, but the former is no longer recorded, at least in long hand.

Based on the above, it seems to me quite likely that "TIFEVISIT" might record in some way a visit to dangerously ill patients, or at least an invitation to visit them, perhaps with actual details of the visit being recorded elsewhere. I have noted that in at least one place in the diary "TIFEVISIT" is accompanied in the right hand margin by details of an actual visit by relatives. Could it be "Too ill to be evacuated Visit", or "Too ill for England Visit"?

As for the other entries, it is notable that all except "TIFEVISIT" begin with "IDE", save for "IDLEJACK", which I have only seen once, and which I think must be an error for "IDELJACK", So do these first two three letters denote the status of the patient as being "dangerously ill" ("in danger of expiry" or similar, or just "in danger"?), with the remainder of the letters indicating either perhaps just how dangerously ill they were, or what was going to be done with them?

If only dangerously ill officers are named in the diary with these acronyms/code words that would explain why so few are named compared to the number going through the hospital.

The translation of "IDEENRENG" as "In danger [transferred to] England" would fit both with the entry  on 23 February 1917 mentioned above, and with Tew's conclusions regarding 2/Lt W. Battison, though I am not sure exactly what the middle [E]NER stand for.

"IDEENTRANS" might similarly refer to a transfer of a dangerously ill man, though if T.T.Taylor is recorded as being transferred while dangerously ill, and was the Taylor on board the Essequibo beside my grandfather, it is hard to see why he was not also referred to as IDEENRENG. It would also be difficult to see what the difference is between these two and IDELJACK, if the latter means "Transferred home while dangerously ill". With regard to there being two entries IDEENTRANS on consecutive days, I don't think that this is necessarily significant, as elsewhere in the diary the death of a patient is sometimes inadvertently recorded twice, or maybe it was intended to transfer him the previous day, but for some reason it was delayed by a day.

Incidentally, I have looked in 2BRC WD for entries referring to T.T. Taylor being dangerously ill before 30 July 1917, but have failed to find any, though I may just have missed them. When I get chance, I may take the time to extract and type all the entries with these acronyms/code words, and also all the deaths, between, say 31 July 1917 and 1 August 1918, both to check for any references that may be  the Taylor who was missing an arm and a leg on the Essequibo, and to see whether anything more can be deduced from the context in which the acronyms/code words are used.

One thing that has struck me from flicking through the diary is that "IDEEPAW" may possibly indicate an improvement in a dangerously ill man's condition, as it seems often to be the last reference to a man in the diary, and I have not noticed any instances of it being followed by a death, unlike TIFEVISIT, which is quite often followed by death. "IDEISABATE" may similarly denote improvement, which would seem logical if the second part of the word is in fact "abate".

Looking into the meanings of these acronyms/code words is not really assisting with answering the question I posed in the OP, though it is interesting in its own right, particularly for anyone trying to understand 2 BRC's WD, or the references to individuals within it. If I do prepare a transcript of relevant entries, I think I will start a new thread in "Medical Services".

Finally, with regard to the question in the OP, I will look at the records of Captain Tom Taylor Talor AVC when I eventually get chane to go to Kew ( I am acquiring a long list of things I want to look at!). I think that if he had been at 2 BRC from May through to the end of July my grandfather may very possibly have thought of him as being there for "many" months. Incidentally, I never cease to be amazed at the accuracy with which my grandfather records times etc. in his diary, as the times and details of his movement from 2 BRC to Southampton  via No 34 AT and the Essequibo exactly accord with the details given by Tew!

I am coming round to there being two Taylors, despite the apparent coincidence of their names, for a number of reasons, not only the date of August 1917 on the postcard. In this connection, it is worth bearing in mind that the postcard does not have an exact date for the crossing, but merely says it was "August 1917", so it doesn't matter that the Essequibo was in dock at Southampton for the first 4 days of August 1917. Also, I have reminded myself that the postcard, unusually, is not pasted into the diary in the entry relevant to 1 August 1918, but simply slipped into the diary loose at that point, which may suggest that my grandfather acquired it after he had written the diary. There are two or three other photos where that is the case.

Also, if "G. Taylor" had handed the postcard to him from the next cot while they were both on board the Essequibo, he would surely, particularly if only using his initial rather than his full christian name, have written his rank and unit? For someone to write merely "G. Taylor" suggests to me that it was written after the war, when ranks and units were no longer so important. If that is so , then G. Taylor may very possibly have been a private during the war, which would make it less likely that he was named in any WD when wounded on 31 July 1917, so it may be difficult to identify him.

 

Edited 2 October , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[TEW]

I'm assuming Grandfather is the Capt. NH of the 2/LF as per your website?

I see he was wounded 9/9/16 and makes it to a casualty list 11 days later. Returned to France in June 1917?

There is nothing I assume in his diaries or the unit diary that could connect him to the Essequibo in Aug 1917?

I had a look at other BRC diaries and ditto for other hospitals in Rouen in case others were using the codes/acronyms. Nothing seen.

I think I'm right in saying 2/BRC was an officers only hospital which makes Taylor in the next cot an officer as he had been at 2/BRC for many months.

I looked at Casualty Lists for Taylor Officers Jan-July 1918 and there are numerous possibilities with various initials. Three G. Taylors wounded March/April 1918 plus five more with an additional initial who would fit the description of many months 1/8/18.

One would expect a wounding 31/7/17 to be in an Aug list. For officers there are the following initials- GLFT, GW, GM & GA. None for a plain GT. For ORs there are far more. But the above means many months is actually a year.

So far it seems the codes/acronyms were only used by 2/BRC for some of their officers. Unless it was information communicated externally it seems a bit pointless including it in the diary without an explanation. May not be a telegram office although I think they did code the destination and department. They may also have to inform the Rouen DDMS regarding the status of officers.

I note you've made progress with viable explanations for some of the codes. Your suggestion for IDEEPAW could connect to Progress reports.

I think some officer's files are needed or more examples from other units.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

 

On 09/07/2021 at 11:23, TEW said:

I'm assuming Grandfather is the Capt. NH of the 2/LF as per your website?

I see he was wounded 9/9/16 and makes it to a casualty list 11 days later. Returned to France in June 1917?

Yes, my grandfather was Captain Norman Hall, as per my website. He was in the 2/5th LF for the first two years of the war until he was wounded on 9/9/1916, then the 1/5th LF from when he returned to the front in June 1917 (as you have noted) until he was invalided to Britain again on 1 August 1918 on board the Essequibo. He had no connection with the Esequibo in August 1917.

As I said in my last post, I do now rather think that there must have been two Taylors.

If my grandfather got the postcard of the Essequibo from a G. Taylor after the war, I am guessing that it would most likely have been at one of the regimental reunions. I do know that the 2/5th were in the vicinity of St Julien on 31 July 1917 in the engagement in which Lieut Col Bertram Best-Dunkley won his VC, and which was written about by T.H. Floyd in his book, At Ypres with Best-Dunkley. LLT confirms that their Division, the 55th were engaged in attacks at Spree, Pond and Schuler farms between 30 July and 4 August 1917, which farms are, I believe, in the area of St Julien. The 2/5th's main involvement seems to have been on 31 July and 1 August, but there is no mention of a Taylor amongst the officers wounded in the engagement, so, if G. Taylor was with the 2/5th at the time, he was an OR. I don;t know if the August list of casualties includes easily searchable details of the unit which the various OR G. Taylors belonged to, and, if so, whether any were from the 2/5 LF. If so, I think that we may well have identified the Taylor named on the postcard.

Returning to the WD of No 2 BRC, I had not realised that that hospital was only for officers. I had assumed that the reason only officers were specifically named was the same reason as why only officers are generally named in other unit WDs as having been wounded. Also, I was misled by the fact that 2 BRCs WD usually refers to numbers of troops admitted, discharged, transferred etc., rather than officers, and I had therefore assumed that "troops" referred to a mixture of officers and ORs,, but on looking more closely I think that the word "troops" may be used to distinguish these men from civilians, as occasionally civilians are admitted etc. I also see that the word "officers"does seem to be used instead of "troops" from the end of June 1917, and appears to account for all the patients at the hospital. Also this website lists the hospital as being "for officers": https://vad.redcross.org.uk/~/media/BritishRedCross/Documents/Who we are/History and archives/What the British Red Cross did abroad during the First World War.pdf. I do see that at least one private is referred to amongst the patients, namely 4836 Private J. Byrne of the Irish Guards, who died on 19 September 1916 from a gangrenous gunshot wound (he had been shot in the thigh and hand), but he is definitely the exception rather than the rule.

I have looked at what my grandfather says about the 2 BRC, as he had 3 visits there altogether, but he throws no light on whether there were any ORs in the hospital when he was there. One interesting little snippet that I have noted is that he gives an account of an air raid during the night of 31 July/1 August 1918, and says that many patients were moved into the cellars, though he was not, and there is a corresponding entry in the WD for the night of 31 July 1918 "Air Raid Alarm - Stood to and took usual precautions," and again on the morning of 1 August 1918 "Air Raid Alarm (second during night) - Took usual precautions and stood to."

Still no closer on an interpretation of the acronyms/code words, I'm afraid.

Edited 10 July , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct Floyd's name and other typos

[TEW]

Well, there is a a Sgt. Gilbert Taylor 201099 of 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. On a wounded list of 8/9/1917.

Battalion details comes from the medal roll.

Findmypast have two service record sheets for him which I think will be 'Sick and injured lists'.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 10/07/2021 at 00:48, TEW said:

Well, there is a a Sgt. Gilbert Taylor 201099 of 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. On a wounded list of 8/9/1917.

Interesting, thank you, Tew. Do you think the entry on the wounded list on 8 September 1917 could tie in with a wounding on 31 July 1917, or would that be too much of a delay? If the delay of 7.5* weeks is feasible, it looks as though we have probably identified at least one of the Taylors.

I have had a look at my copy of Floyd's account of the 2/5th's involvement in the engagement on 31 July 1917, in case he mentions a Sergeant Taylor being wounded, but I can't see that he does, though it would be easy to miss it, as my copy does not have an index.

*actually this was only a 5 week delay, as pointed out by Tew in his next post

 

Edited 19 February , 2023 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To add the asterisked annotation

[TEW]

3 to 4 weeks is the oft quoted delay from wound to being published. It's really only a guideline that could be honed down by cross referencing the published list against service records. For inexplicable reasons you can find a week gap for two men wounded on the same day in same battalion.

Sometimes you find only a two week gap, in this case it's 5 weeks? Not at all out of the ordinary.

The 8/9/1917 published list is quite extensive as it is for all Lancashire Fusiliers not just 2/5th. But there are a fair amount of numbers suggesting  the correct battalion. The list is available from NLS if you want to backtrack with service records to establish a date.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194141210

Looks a bit fuzzy on my phone, hopefully a download looks better.

The two FMP sheets may actually give a date of injury for Taylor. Sometimes they give company details and I assume you have that for NH?

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks, Tew. I have followed the link, and feel that I must be being very stupid, as, when I find the entries relating to the LF on that page, it says "Wounded (contd) Lancashire Fusiliers (contd)". The wounded men listed begin with "Rawlinson", and continue on through the alphabet, including, of course, Acting Sergeant G. Taylor, but I can't for the life of me find where the names beginning with A to Q are. At first I thought this was going to scupper me, as I wanted to look in the list for names of NCOs mentioned by Floyd as being wounded on 31/7/1917, and, as luck would have it, all of them were in the first half of the alphabet. In the end, however, I looked in the 2/5th WD itself, and found that, though the WD doesn't name ORs who were wounded, it does record that 200980 Lance Corporal J. Turner was awarded the MM for his part in the engagement on 31 July 1917, and he features in the daily list for 8 September. As i say, the Battalion WD doesn't expressly say that he was wounded in the engagement, but it seems quite likely, so that would seem to confirm that the men who appear in the list of 8 September, including Sergeant G. Taylor, were wounded on 31 July1917.

I am therefore now pretty certain that the "G. Taylor" mentioned on the reverse of the postcard of the Essequibo is 201099 Acting Sergeant Gilbert Taylor of the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, wounded at St Julien on 31 July 1917, who subsequently returned to England on board the Essequibo in August 1917. In August 1917 my grandfather was with the 1/5th LF in France, but, as mentioned above, subsequently himself was invalided home on board the Essequibo on 1 August 1918, and must have obtained the postcard of the vessel from Gilbert Taylor after the war, probably at a Battalion reunion.

The other Taylor who, minus an arm and a leg, was beside my grandfather on board the Essequibo on 1 August 1918, must be a different Taylor, very probably Captain T.T. Taylor AVC, but further consideration of that aspect will have to wait till I can get to Kew.

A big thank you, Tew, for all your help with this.

Tricia

Edited 12 July , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct number of G.Taylor

[TEW]

The surnames starting with Aldred are in the centre column towards the bottom. Under the single wounded man of Leicestershire regiment.

Numbers from 200001 to 240000 equate to 5th LF, meaning both 1/5 & 2/5. Gilbert Taylor was 201199 and his medal roll gives 2/5.

Can't give an exact range for each battalion but it looks like 2/5 had the low end of that range.

2/5 men wounded 31/7/17 could be spread across other lists. The NLS linked list will include men wounded on different dates.

You can manually trawl each weekly publication which could have four daily lists. Sort of thing your eyes need a rest from occasionally!

TEW

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks, Tew, I have now found the A-Q LF in the casualty list. I was struggling to find out how to zoom in to the page view on NLS, so I was looking at the transcript, and for some reason the transcript of A-Q appears after the transcript of R-Z. Anyway, I have now found the NCOs mentioned by Floyd as being wounded, Sergeant Baldwin, Sergeant Brogden, and Corporal Livesay, confirming beyond a doubt that men wounded on 31 July 1917 at St Julien were likely to appear in this list, and further confirming that it is almost certainly 201099 Sergeant Gilbert Taylor who is the Taylor referred to on the reverse of my grandfather's postcard of Essequibo.

Edited 21 February , 2023 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[TEW]

Considering your opening line of:

Quote

I am trying to identify a G. Taylor who was wounded at St Julien on 31 July 1917.

This must be something of a success. Shame we never got a handle on the acronyms/codes. If I ever see similar again I'll reply.

If you do find anything in any Officers' files do please post it up.

 

One last question. Do you know which Company of 2/5 LF your Grandfather was with from 31/7/1917?

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Yes, a success indeed, thanks to you, Tew.

I am waiting for a wet day to type up some of the entries in the 2BRC WD with the acronyms/code words, as I think this may help to take things forward, and I will then start a new thread on the Medical Services Forum, including key bits from this thread.

I will certainly post further on this thread if, when I eventually get to Kew, I find anything of relevance regarding the other Taylor, the one who was on the Esequibo on 1 August 1918.

Regarding my grandfather, I am sorry if I have confused the issue here, as his time with the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers came to an end when he was wounded in September 1916. When he went back in June 1917 he was assigned to the 1/5th. Because he left such a detailed account covering the whole war, I know which Company he was at all times, both in the 2/5th and the 1/5th, but, as I am not sure why you are asking the question, I am not sure whether, now that you know that he was in the 1/5th from 31 July 1917, you are still interested as to which Company he was in - probably not!

Tricia

[TEW]

His company is of interest as I looked at one of the two FMP sheets for Gilbert Taylor. It's not what I thought it would be. It is a list of Orders, I don't fully understand the context but it's for RE in Bedford August 1918. For some reason G Taylor 5th LF is on this list noted as being A Coy.

As it says 5th LF it's possibly either battalion. I know his number and medal info only gives 2/5 but it's possible Taylor served in both.

However, it's not known if Taylor ever returned to France after his injury (either before or after the Aug 1918 list).

On face value it looks like NH & G Taylor were in different battalions and their paths did not cross. A post-war reunion is not impossible but I'm wondering if the two men did serve together at some point.

TEW

 

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Interesting. Is it possible that Gilbert Taylor went through Bedford in August 1918 on his way back to the front after being wounded on 31 July 1917?

I see that the MIC for Gilbert Taylor doesn't show a date of entry into France so it was certainly not before 31 December 1915. It's possible that he might have arrived with the 2/5th between 1 January 1916 and 9 September 1916, so as to be with the Battalion at the front at the same time as my grandfather, though it's unlikely that they would really have known each other unless they were in the same company. Almost throughout that time my grandfather was in "Z" Company (the companies were lettered "W" to "Z" at that period instead of "A" to "D", owing to the scope for confusion between "B" and "D" over the telephone, according to my grandfather), apart from a very brief spell as OC of "Y" ("C") Company at the very end of June 1916. There is, of course, no reason why Gilbert Taylor would necessarily have been in the same company throughout his time with the 2/5th, especially if his service with them was interrupted by a period recovering from a wound in Britain, so it's not impossible that he was with my grandfather in "Z" Company prior to September 1916.

Even if not, however, my grandfather must have continued to feel a close affiliation to the 2/5th - possibly closer than to the 1/5th - after the war, as he was one of 5 officers/NCOs to represent the 2/5th (a Battalion of the 55th (West Lancashire) Division) at the unveiling of the Givenchy Memorial to the 55th Division 100 years ago this May, even though he was no longer with the 2/5th LF by the time of the engagement which the memorial principally commemorates, the German Spring Offensive in 1918, So, even if 1/5th and 2/5th LF reunions were separate, I expect that he would have attended the 2/5th reunions, and may have met Gilbert Taylor then if he also did so.

[TEW]

If you want the sheet it's within the service record for 5988 Fred Harrison Royal Army Service Corps. Not sure of the Ancestry page number but it's numbered 0230 at the bottom.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

22 hours ago, TEW said:

If you want the sheet it's within the service record for 5988 Fred Harrison Royal Army Service Corps. Not sure of the Ancestry page number but it's numbered 0230 at the bottom.

Thank you, I don't have access to Ancestry, but it's good to have this information on the thread, in case someone else who is researching Sergeant Gilbert Taylor comes across it.