George Patrick shudall

[Kevinshudall]

My grandfather was in four different regiments is that the normal in ww1. 292002 middx reg      41654 royal irish regiment,7111081 british regiment. 286385 royal engineers. He' was in expeditionary force to alexandra. He lived in wexford  Ireland joined up at15 don't have any other information 

[Matlock1418]

51 minutes ago, Kevinshudall said:

My grandfather was in four different regiments is that the normal in ww1. 292002 middx reg      41654 royal irish regiment,7111081 british regiment. 286385 royal engineers.

Kevin,

Welcome to GWF.

It was not at all that uncommon to serve in several various regiments/corps - the Army put you where it wanted you [or where circumstances lead]

I am sure you will get plenty more but I will concentrate first on the rather interesting looking 7111081 number.

According to a GEORGE SHUDDALL Pension Index Card [At the Western Front Association / Fold3] that 7111081 number refers to the Royal Army Ordnance Corps.

As it is a seven digit number it seems likely that he served after the war/post-1920 when the army renumbered to give everyone a unique Service Number instead of Regimental Numbers which could get duplicated across various unit.

Such records may well survive amongst those still held by the Ministry of Defence [As they were kept elsewhere and were not destroyed by bombing/fire in WW2]

You should be able to apply for them https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records 

Other members here on GWF may be able to do a preliminary search to see if they can spot him

Good luck with your wider enquiries.

:-) M

 

Edit:

Whilst on that Pension Index Card I might as well report that it offers a few more clues.

There appear to be other/additional/alternative numbers which may help you and others here on GWF

Middlesex Regiment 4029

Royal Engineers 5015 & 292002 [the latter seems to actually be his Midd'x No.]

Royal Irish Regiment 4168 [just possibly alternatively 7168]

 

Further Edit:

The Pension Index Card gives little other information - except that it shows he made his [unspecified claim] in Region 11 [SE England]

Edited 9 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit & further edit

[Matlock1418]

George SHUDALL's MIC at the National Archives in b/w http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5148845 [also viewable on Ancestry in colour] shows that he got a British War Medal & Victory Medal - i.e. apparently showing he first served in a Theatre of War after 31-12-1915 [as no ToW was indicated that typically meant France]

The corresponding Medal Roll at Ancestry shows such service with just a bit more detail on the Middlesex posting

2/10 Midd'x R.292002

R. Engrs 286385

Royal Irish Rifles Regiment 41654

Pte being the only rank shown

:-) M

Edited 9 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Strike-through and correction

[Kevinshudall]

In around 1934 George shudall was at bramley admonition depot I have photo wearing uniform with three stripes on left lower arm inside the camp.thanks regards Kevin. 

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The corresponding Medal Roll at Ancestry shows such service with just a bit more detail on the Middlesex posting

 

M. - which Regiment \ Corps actually issued his medals?

 

Hi @Kevinshudall and welcome to the forum.

 

As @Matlock1418 says, his Medal Index Card and the associated Service Medal Roll shows he only qualified for the British War Medal & the Victory Medal, a combination that means he did not land in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

 

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail explains one of the possible reasons for a change of service number - the 2/10th Battalion Middlesex Regiment was disbanded during the course of the war. However it may possibly shed some light on the reference to Alexandria.

 

2/10th Battalion
Formed at Stamford Brook in September 1914 as a second line unit. Moved to Staines and attached to 2/Middlesex Brigade (201st), 2/Home Counties Division (67th).
24 April 1915 : moved to 160th (Welsh Border) Brigade in 53rd (Welsh) Division. Moved to Cambridge and in May to Bedford.
18 July 1915 : sailed from devonport, going via Imbros and landed at Suvla Bay on 9 August 1915.
December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.
19 August 1918 : left the Division and disbanded in Egypt.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/

 

Because of the high rates of sickness experienced by units serving at Gallipoli, many had to be rebuilt in Egypt during the opening months of 1916 with drafts sent from UK training units - so a possible explanation of why he served with the 2/10th but wasn't with them at Gallipoli, (although not the only one). The service number 4029 probably relates to this period of service - the 2/10th Battalion was a Territorial Force and other ranks serving with such units received a new Service number at the start of 1917. The number block 290001 to 315000 was issued for use by the 10th Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

Unfortunately War Diaries for units serving in Egypt and Palestine have not yet been digitised, they have to be inspected at the National Archive. It's very unlikely to mention him by name, but may give you some idea of where men were posted to on disbandment of the 2/10th Battalion.

 

25 minutes ago, Kevinshudall said:

In around 1934 George shudall was at bramley admonition depot I have photo wearing uniform with three stripes on left lower arm inside the camp.

 

At least some if not all his service records are likely to be with the Ministry of Defence.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, PRC said:

M. - which Regiment \ Corps actually issued his medals?

Royal Irish Regiment

[Apologies my error above - not Rifles]

:-/ M

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Kevinshudall said:

In around 1934 George shudall was at bramley admonition depot I have photo wearing uniform with three stripes on left lower arm inside the camp.

Are you referring to Wound Stripes or something else at that date?

Although rather later than the GW if it relates then it would be interesting and valid to consider possible woundings further.

= Can you perhaps please share the photo?

:-) M

Edited 9 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Request for photo

[Matlock1418]

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

Because of the high rates of sickness experienced by units serving at Gallipoli, many had to be rebuilt in Egypt during the opening months of 1916 with drafts sent from UK training units

I have wondered if the lack of a ToW on his MIC [perhaps indicating first in France] was perhaps indicative of troopship to France, then rail to south of France, Marseilles perhaps, and then another troopship to Egypt - thus avoiding a long troopship via the Bay of Biscay and risk of U-Boats ??? - Army troopships and Naval matters etc. certainly not my field however. 

Wonder if any expert(s) on trooping/troopships or perhaps @horatio2or @KizmeRD or similar might perhaps be able to comment. ??

:-) M

 

 

[PRC]

M,

 

There is a generic absence of a Theatre of War on MiC's for VM & BWM awards, (with the exception of some officers), so I wouldn't make any specific assumption as to where he served first. I'm also not sure that transiting a country officially counted as being part of the relevant Expeditionary Force whether as a unit or an individual so they didn't actually serve - although as usual there are probably exceptions arising from clerical errors

 

As far as getting to Egypt was concerned, as well as going via Marseilles after crossing France by train, I believe there was also a route via Taranto in Italy.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Kevinshudall]

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I have wondered if the lack of a ToW on his MIC [perhaps indicating first in France] was perhaps indicative of troopship to France, then rail to south of France, Marseilles perhaps, and then another troopship to Egypt - thus avoiding a long troopship via the Bay of Biscay and risk of U-Boats ??? - Army troopships and Naval matters etc. certainly not my field however. 

Wonder if any expert(s) on trooping/troopships or perhaps @horatio2or @KizmeRD or similar might perhaps be able to comment. ??

:-) M

Troop ship was called ogoma, three stripes on left lower arm I thought it might be Sargent. 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Kevinshudall said:

three stripes on left lower arm I thought it might be Sargent. 

There are stripes and 'stripes'.

But again not my field, and we probably won't be able to go into it too much as post-GW, but a picture would likely help greatly.

:-) M

 

Edited 10 June , 2021 by Matlock1418

[museumtom]

I was waiting until you were both thanked for your recent posts, Matlock and PRC, before I stepped in to post mine.

[museumtom]

I'll PM the info now lads.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, museumtom said:

I'll PM the info now lads.

Thanks Tom.

:-) M

[PRC]

2 hours ago, museumtom said:

I'll PM the info now lads.

 

Thank you Tom ,

 

Cheers,

Peter

[museumtom]

You are most welcome lads.