Arthur Roberts KOSB

[Alan24]

If he's wearing the BWM & VM ribbons, that puts the photo well after his Jan 1918 transfer to the labour Corps, but he's still wearing RSF uniform. 

[corisande]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Looks like  VM and BWM ribbons, which makes it post Sep 1919.

 

I noted the medal ribbon, but had no idea how to interpret it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

So the photo was between Sep & Dec 1919.  Am I right in saying he was in RSF uniform - so is that mutually exclusinve with him having transferred to Labour Corps in Jan 1919

 

[edit] I see that Alan24 reach ed same conclusin just before I did :-)  [/edit]

Edited 11 June , 2021 by corisande

[ss002d6252]

Just now, corisande said:

 

I noted the medal ribbon, but had no idea how to interpret it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

So the photo was between Sep & Dec 1919.  Am I right in saying he was in RSF uniform - so is that mutually exclusinve with him having transferred to Labour Corps in Jan 1919

 

That is definitely a spanner in the works if it's the BWM and VM.

Craig

[Alan24]

9 minutes ago, corisande said:

so is that mutually exclusinve with him having transferred to Labour Corps in Jan 1919

 

yes, It looks far more likely now that he transferred to the LC in Jan 1919, not 1916 or 1918. But the service number dates from Dec 1917 or Jan 1918?

Edited 11 June , 2021 by Alan24

[corisande]

Trying a different approach,  his Labour Corps number 411237 would have originated from Dec 1917/Jan 1918

 

Dates of issuing numbers are not one of my strong points

 

WHich is when our timeline has him transferring

Edited 11 June , 2021 by corisande

[ss002d6252]

On 11/06/2021 at 19:10, corisande said:

Trying a different approach, can anyone help with when his Labour Corps number 411237 would have originated

 

Dates of issuing numbers are not one of my strong points

 

   

 

https://search-findmypast-co-uk.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007271320%2f01220&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7271320%2f68%2f1214

 

Craig

[Alan24]

21 hours ago, corisande said:

So all I can find in the ecors about him  is a Pair Roll entry that says

  

 

If he had transferred to the LC before 11.11.18 I would have expected to see his number 411237 in the right hand column as well. 

This roll suggests his transfer is after the armistice, not Jan 1918, which ties in with the photo which suggests his transfer after Sept 1919. 

 

The RSF rolls that I posted had the soldiers numbers in both left and right columns indicating that RSF was their last/current allocation (left) and service overseas with that unit before 11.11.18 (right). 

[corisande]

Given Craig has a man transferring to Labour Corps as #411238  on 22 Dec 1917, am I right in believing that Arthur Roberts with  Labour Corps #411237 would have been  within a day or so of this ?

 

I feel we should be able to agree his transfer date, but I sense it is less clear cut to others!

 

 

 

Edited 11 June , 2021 by corisande

[Alan24]

3 minutes ago, corisande said:

Given Craig has a man transferring to Labour Corps as #411238  on 22 Dec 1917, am I right in believing that Arthur Roberts with  Labour Corps #411237 would have been  within a day or so of this ?

All logic says YES. We had this as Jan 1918. 

But he's still in RSF uniform in Sept 1919...

 

Perhaps the last photo is a 'Survivors Photo' staged using his old uniform?

Edited 11 June , 2021 by Alan24

[ss002d6252]

I can't see any pension ledger etc for him - is it possible that he re-joined the RSF post discharge ? It would allow the picture to be explained.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

#411325 was issued 20 Dec 1917

Craig

[corisande]

is it possible that he re-joined the RSF post discharge ? It would allow the picture to be explained.

 

I don't think so. "accepted wisdom" suggests he joined Harland and Woolf as an engineer. There is nothing to suggest he rejoined RSF, though again it might have been the case that he re-joined for a short period
 

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/06/2021 at 18:34, corisande said:

I have found a new photo of Arthur Roberts which seems to be in "Victoria Cross holder Johnson Beharry on why Arthur Roberts is his Black History Month hero"

 

Hopefully @FROGSMILE will be able to glean more on Roberts from this photo

 

Very late in the war I think.  Cap badge and shoulder titles are all typical of the Royal Scots Fusiliers and his Tam-o-shanter worn with confidence.  The overseas service stripes and war medal ribbons all seem to indicate war service into 1919.  Perhaps he was sent to Russia with the intervention force, or some other theatre that still qualified as a war zone.   If he regained medical fitness and was boarded successfully (there were varying degrees of immersion foot) then he might have rejoined his old regiment.  Failing that it can only be a survivor’s photograph wearing his old insignia I imagine, but I’m less convinced by that notion.

 

NB.  Incidentally his shoulder title is the late war, woven worsted patch pattern, stitched directly onto the shoulder strap.  Similar to below but with RSF.

 

 

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, corisande said:

He appears to have transferred to RSF before landing in France.

For Clarification.

He was in a draft transferred and renumbered to the RSF at 21 IBD (Etaples) in France on the 2nd June 1917 and joined the Battalion, in the field on the 7th. 

Drafts normally arrived when the receiving battalion was out of the line.  The 2nd Bn went into the front line a couple of days later in the Ypres sector. 

The is unfortunately no consistency in the compilation of the medal rolls but my guess is that the draft was destined for the 2nd KOSB but as, frequently happened once at the IBD they were directed to the 2nd RSF.  Technically they first entered a theatre of war wearing KOSB badges but were rebadged in the following fortnight. 

There is no doubt 41184 Cunningham did not serve in the field with the 2nd KOSB (sorry about typo in original post) but that was where he was posted to in the UK from the 3rd Bn. to the 2nd KOSB.

 

21 IBD was for Scottish Regiments as every effort was made to retain their identity.

 

A further point he may have retained his RSF identity whilst on 'Base details' see extract of service record posted by Craig for 411237.

 

I think we can say with a high degree of certainty his active service with the 2nd RSF was from 7th June 1917 to October when hospitalised.  After that he seems to have been on L Of C duties.

[FROGSMILE]

That all makes sense to me.  If he had immersion foot to a degree where it was likely to heal then his medical grading would be temporary and with every prospect of him returning to his battalion so he could well have remained badged to the RSF as parent unit.

Edited 11 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PPCLI]

Hi all,

 

My KOSB roll shows a 3rd KOSB draft sent overseas on 20 May 1917 nominally to the 2nd Bn, as described by Ken, and being transferred to the 2nd RSF on 2 June 1917.

 

You will note that the KOSB men were allocated their new RSF numbers based on their original KOSB number, as was usually the case when administered by the 21 IBD at Etaples.

 

Starting with:

Thomas Naismith 25725 (2nd) KOSB / 41171 2nd RSF and William Rarity 26117 (2nd) KOSB / 41172 2nd RSF

then missing the next few men until:

Arthur William David Roberts 28384 (2nd) KOSB / 41180 2nd RSF

and I have details of most of the men in this batch until:

John Marshall 28512 (2nd) KOSB / 41209 2nd RSF

Then starting just a man before:

George Donaldson 30016 (2nd) KOSB / 41211 2nd RSF

until:

Ernest Frankland 30063 (2nd) KOSB / 41223 2nd RSF

and I have:

James Alexander 31109 (2nd) KOSB / 41231 2nd RSF

through to at least (but probably further than):

James Diamond 31113 (2nd) KOSB / 41234 2nd RSF

possibly through to high 4124* RSF

So, it appears to be a group of up to eighty KOSB men transferred to the 2nd RSF.

 

Of most interest to this topic, you will note that I have Arthur Robert's KOSB number as 28384; this was given to me a number of years ago by the archivist at the KOSB Museum. 

 

I also agree with Ken's theory about Arthur retaining his RSF identity whilst on 'Base details' duty.

 

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[corisande]

Stuart

 

Thanks very much, I have edited Arthur Roberts timeline to read now

 

1917 Feb - May with KOSB from his first enlisting  ("As good as any man").

1917 May 20 Arrives in France.  He is 28384 (2nd) KOSB. Their roll shows a 3rd KOSB draft sent overseas  nominally to the 2nd Bn

1917 Jun 2. The draft of 80 KSOB men including Arthur Roberts transferred to the 2nd RSF as Private 41180

1917 Jun 3 ordered to move to the front at Ypres as part of a co-ordinated attack at Messines Ridge,

1917 Jun 5 He arrives at the front

1917 Jul 31 , he writes going over the top at Pilckem Ridge was "a terrible, yet wonderful" experience.

Over the following four months Arthur was at the front line three times, at Pilckem Ridge, Neuve-Église and finally Kemmel.

1917, Sep 2 he writes in his diary : "We were shelled to blazes. I had a very narrow shave."

1917 Oct in hospital with Trench Foot  (The Great War: The People's Story by Isobel Charman)

1917 Nov 1 Arthur was granted a permanent role at base due to a prolonged injury to his foot.

1918 Jan Transfers to Labour Corps as Private 411237 Labour Corps 883 AE Company

1918 Mar 6 end of Diary

1919 Dec 5 Discharged ("As good as any man")

Edited 11 June , 2021 by corisande

[corisande]

Arthur Roberts non-military details are more difficult. Perhaps anyone with a genealogy bent might like to spend some time checking out Arthurs life outside the Army

        It is unclear who his father was. For example was he a West Indies resident, or did he come from S Wales

        It is unclear what happened to his mother, I cannot find a death in England or Scotland. If you compare different trees on Ancestry, one group has her marrying David Roberts  in 1894 there is a chance that she is the same woman in another tree group who -married in 1907 in Worcs to a William Henry Randall

        It is unclear what happened to his father. In the various online write ups, they say he went to Scotland with his father, but is father is not in 1901 nor 1911 scottich censuses

 

1894 Laura Dann married David Roberts Jenkins in 1894, But Arthur was born Arthur William David Roberts in 1897. Arthur appears to their only (surviving) child. An Ancestry tree says he has a sister Marjory, b1894, but I cannot verify that.

 

1897 Apr 28 Born at 36 Coronation Road, Bedminster, Bristol His father David was a Ships Steward. Mother Laura

 

1898 Feb 4 Christened

 

 

1901 census in Bristol. His father is not there, but that is not unexpected for a ship's steward

 

1911 census . A 14 year old schoolboy living in a Hostel in Glasgow (no parents with him). He is a schoolboy, born England,

                      I cannot find either of his parents in 1911 census in either England or Scotland

 

He returns to Glasgow after WW1 to work in Harland & Woolf

 

1956 Married in Blackpool . ROBERTS Arthur W D Finnigan Blackpool 10b1026 . It is not clear why he was in Blackpool

 

1982 Died Glasgow.  on Scotlands People . ROBERTS, ARTHUR WILLIAM. age 84

        mothers maiden name DANN. 

        At 605/ 48 . Glasgow, Martha St

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Baptism

 

 

https://www-findmypast-co-uk.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/transcript?id=R_885148240

 

Other records record the location as  Bristol, St Mary Redcliffe, Gloucestershire, England

 

 

 

Craig

[corisande]

Thanks Craig I have added that  info now - I put it into my post to keep it all together

[corisande]

There is a YouTube clip from STV - click - that includes the stills below. The quality is not good as they are just freeze-frames

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Even when in freeze frame it confirms his cap badge quite clearly as RSF.  The Labour Corps (LC) aspect is still puzzling, but a number of men did return to the infantry from the LC following the manpower crisis induced by the German Spring offensive, and I suppose we shouldn’t rule that out.

[MaxD]

Is it not the case that some men continued, perhaps as an act of defiance, to wear their original cap badge after transfer to the LC?

 

MaxD

[Alan24]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

, but a number of men did return to the infantry from the LC following the manpower crisis induced by the German Spring offensive, and I suppose we shouldn’t rule that out.

 

Good point! I wonder if the cessation of his diary on 6 Mar 1918 has anything to do with the Sping Offesnsive? 

[corisande]

And  (yet) another photo