Sidney George Dunton - Bombardier 1786 RFA

[PRC]

While recently walking round the main civic cemetery in Norwich I came across a headstone of a young man, Sidney George Dunton, aged 19 who had died on the 25th July 1916.

 

 

His father was James Alexander Dunton. Of course at first glance nothing to suggest Sidneys' death was service related.

 

There is just one Medal Index Card for a Sidney George Dunton - Bombardier 1786 1st East Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, and the MiC only shows he received a Silver War Badge.

 

There are actually surviving service records for that soldier, who enlisted in the 2/1st Battery, 1st East Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, (Territorial Force) on the 8th of March 1915. His next of kin was his father, James Alexander Dunton. The address given by Sidney on enlistment and as the address of his father was 4 Rutland Street, Norwich. He was discharged on the 12th November 1915 as no longer physically fit to serve as a result of a tubercle on the lung.

 

He was initially turned down for a pension as the tubercle was deemed as neither caused or aggravated by his service. Sidney appealed and this was heard on the 1st April 1916. Sidney claimed he was fit and robust until he spent the autumn of 1915 under canvas, and his condition if not caused was certainly aggravated by the damp conditions.

 

What I can't seem to find is if his appeal was successful, which presumably would have been necessary if the CWGC were to ever consider him as a non-commeration. I'm taking that as the first hurdle to be got over before there is any question of obtaining a death certificate.

 

The nearest I can find to his potential status at the time of his death is this official letter sent to the Chelsea Hospital notifying that he had died on the 25th July 1916. It does refer to him as a pensioner, but gets his middle name wrong.

 

(Image courtesy FindMyPast)

 

I see there are Pension Ledger Cards on Ancestry for an Sidney George Dunton, Sidney Geo. Dunton and a Sidney Geoffrey Dunton, but don't have a subscription so can't confirm if any are relevant.

 

I'm fairly convinced the RFA Bombardier and the man buried in Norwich Cemetery are one and the same.

 

What I'm not clear on is as he died post discharge and was initially turned down for a pension as the condition was deemed not service related, is there any surviving evidence to show that decision was reversed?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[BarbaraG]

Not much information - there is a third card but seems to be a note re. Death

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

On 04/06/2021 at 06:52, PRC said:

He was initially turned down for a pension as the tubercle was deemed as neither caused or aggravated by his service. Sidney appealed and this was heard on the 1st April 1916. Sidney claimed he was fit and robust until he spent the autumn of 1915 under canvas, and his condition if not caused was certainly aggravated by the damp conditions.

 

What I can't seem to find is if his appeal was successful, which presumably would have been necessary if the CWGC were to ever consider him as a non-commeration. I'm taking that as the first hurdle to be got over before there is any question of obtaining a death certificate.

 

The nearest I can find to his potential status at the time of his death is this official letter sent to the Chelsea Hospital notifying that he had died on the 25th July 1916. It does refer to him as a pensioner, but gets his middle name wrong.

Even if you don't have anything as obvious as causation or aggravation, the key query now seems likely to be the "commencing whilst on active service" amongst the CWGC's criteria for commemoration https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf - pension matters perhaps really being an important key indicator of acceptance, by the nation, of service and that at least.  But finding his cause of death is going to be crucial.

 

Meantime ... You may have seen this, but probably worth revisiting = On the point of Tubercle of the lung / Pulmonary tuberculosis / Tuberculosis / Phthisis

This is what the Ministry of Pensions had to say about things [probably later than 1916, likely c.1918 I suspect]:

 

Image courtesy of materials from GWF/ Forum member ss002d6252 - with thanks

 

From MIC and SR = Home Service only - The key bit thus seems to me to be the last paragraph, (2) - essentially: aggravation to be presumed in the absence of evidence to the contrary - Where is such evidence to satisfy the Board to dismiss? And what was the burden of proof for the Board? ["On the balance of probabilities"? -  And now for the CWGC??]

 

However, from the letter posted above in the OP, it rather looks like Denton was considered a pensioner, and thus one might presume was paid a pension, potentially because of the condition that caused his discharge.  [Can anyone be a pensioner and not be in receipt of a pension?]

Rather looks like he might have got 4/8, 13/11/15 to 29/2/16 [left column in ink]

Unfortunately none of the Pension Index Cards at WFA/Fold3 shed any light on his medical condition or indicate any payments - though they too seem to struggle with his forenames [mind you he signs himself Sydney George and yet the headstone is Sidney George - and I suspect there are likely similar variations across other records!].

 

What I think I can also detect from the first pension card posted above is an Identity number - SER 6119 - I think such was required as personal identification in order that a man could claim his Pension at a Post Office - so perhaps a bit of a handy steer that way, to him having been paid a pension [?] 

Being paid a pension seems to me a likely big plus for commemoration, if his cause of death matches his discharge/pensionable medical condition = so looking forward to that DC!

And to your conclusion.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Peter,

I should have looked at his SR earlier!!! - took a while to find it, but seems very interesting ... I offer two key pages:

The first page does perhaps rather look like the potential rejection of a pension claim

Image courtesy of Find My Past - with thanks

 

Originated Hertford 5.10.15 ... Probably aggravated by ordinary military service and then reading past the notes of the Board of 26.10.15 Not result of military service you again get to Aggravated by ...

At that stage it seems they were not accepting 'Aggravated by'.

 

And yet - the second page further shows that his pension claim was not rejected after all, and that apparently after his father's appeal he, Sydney, was paid a pension as "aggravated by" [very, very faint on left - the quotation marks are original] by the [Board] Bd 13 April 1916 - see marginal marks in red

Yes, Aggravated by!  And accepted for a pension!!

Image courtesy of FMP

It can also be seen, on the right, that he was awarded [pw] 4/8 from 13/11/15 to 29/2/16 [As seen in the left column of the Central Army Pension Issue Office letter in the OP] and also 20/- from 1/3/16 to 12/8/16 [I think the 20/- was the then/1916 maximum rate for 100% disability] with potential extension of the 20/- rate = But from his grave headstone, he was dead before then [25 July 1916].

 

We need to know cause of death - I do think that DC should be obtained.

DUNTON, SYDNEY  GEORGE                                                            19  

GRO Reference: 1916  S Quarter in NORWICH  Volume 04B  Page 148

 

If TB, then CWGC should accept Aggravated by Military Service.

From CWGC

 

I like the look of that point - 'disease aggravated by active service'!

 

Also:

To me this rather appears to be his birth registration - so should sort out the spelling of his forenames - CWGC may need a BC too :-/

Name:                                                                                                  Mother's Maiden Surname: 

DUNTON, SYDNEY  GEORGE EDWIN                                                  BEAUMONT  

GRO Reference: 1897  M Quarter in NORWICH  Volume 04B  Page 192

 

At least Sydney & George appear to be amongst his forenames!

 

Please do let us know how you get on.

:-) M

 

[BarbaraG]

Here is the third Pension Record Card....

 

[PRC]

Thank you @BarbaraG for looking and providing the pension cards - very much appreciated.

 

@Matlock1418 - thank you as well. The patchy quality of the page you have posted and the contradiction with the information on the November 1916 memo from the Pension Office to the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, which effectively stated pension ended \withdrawn on the 29th February 1916 was what was causing me to have doubts. To me it was almost reading like the pension had been awarded in error. For anyone looking through the service record all the statements that his condition was not caused by his service are wonderfully clear. The subsequent reversal of that decision is very far from obvious and so it was indeed coming down to a balance of probabilities, and so potential for much quibbling.

 

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

To me this rather appears to be his birth registration - so should sort out the spelling of his forenames - CWGC may need a BC too :-/

Name:                                                                                                  Mother's Maiden Surname: 

DUNTON, SYDNEY  GEORGE EDWIN                                                  BEAUMONT  

GRO Reference: 1897  M Quarter in NORWICH  Volume 04B  Page 192

His appearances on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses also have him as Sydney George Edwin Dunton. On the 1911 Census the family were living at 4 Rutland Street, Norwich, (address for nok on the service records). Parents James Alexander and Mary Ann Dunton have been married 23 years, which ties in with a Q2 1888 marriage in Norwich of a James Alexander Dunton to a Mary Ann Beaumont. As well as Sydney the couple have one other child, the 22 year old Frank Ewart Dunton, born Norwich. (Birth registered in the Norwich District Q2 1889, mothers' maiden name Beaumont).

 

However believe CWGC would look to commemorate him under the name he served as, which is Sidney George Dunton.

 

As a researcher on a very small budget I shall have to count my pennies and see if they can stretch to getting a copy of the death certificate. My next step is probably to sign up to the In from the Cold site to check and see if Sidney case isn't already working it's way through the system with them.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, BarbaraG said:

Here is the third Pension Record Card....

Handy for completeness.

A 1916 document which only seems to err towards confirming a likely 1916 death - unfortunately not specifically giving the exact date

[but we do have that date - and apparently linked - from his headstone and the Pension letter in the SR].

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

On 04/06/2021 at 19:47, PRC said:

The subsequent reversal of that decision is very far from obvious and so it was indeed coming down to a balance of probabilities, and so potential for much quibbling.

Potentially ... but I think it eventually it was not the case and I think is/should not be now.

I do recognise that the earlier more obvious 'rejection' [below] does seem to headline things a bit - but I do think this was later reversed

Image courtesy of FM

Provided here for more completeness here/information of other GWF members

[not to support a non-commemoration! - but might as well show it as it will get scrutiny at some time I'm sure]

 

However , I think this image is possibly a bit clearer for the re "Aggravated by" Board entry that I mentioned above

[it does look even clearer directly on FMP] - so here it's location is further identified.

Image courtesy of FMP

Certainly the above abstract does rather seem to more clearly reverse this other apparently damning earlier letter, again in my opinion of course!

I think it is now very clearly demonstrable that he did get a pension and why - this seems shown/demonstrable.

But as you know it's not down to me, or you, but CWGC and NAM & JCCC too

 

On 04/06/2021 at 19:47, PRC said:

However believe CWGC would look to commemorate him under the name he served as, which is Sidney George Dunton.

Again in my opinion, to me CWGC often seem to look to show true name and perhaps also as a 'served as' [but not necessarily as a 'served as' if there is strong alternative evidence] - for me his SR clearly is under Sydney - both in title and his signature [how much clearer is that at the start of his service? His MIC and other such military spellings of his forename seem to come well down the chronology]

 

On 04/06/2021 at 19:47, PRC said:

As a researcher on a very small budget I shall have to count my pennies and see if they can stretch to getting a copy of the death certificate. My next step is probably to sign up to the In from the Cold site to check and see if Sidney case isn't already working it's way through the system with them.

I do understand about watching the pennies re; certs. ;-)

If the DC does eventually meet our likely expectation of TB as cause of death if you don't present to CWGC I do think IFCP should probably be able to swing with this - if they haven't already started to do so.

Then only CWGC, NAM & JCCC and their rules to then persuade [and a fair wait] - simple!!

... In hope.

:-) M

 

[PaulC78]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

My next step is probably to sign up to the In from the Cold site to check and see if Sidney case isn't already working it's way through the system with them.

 

He's not on the list.

[PRC]

Thanks @PaulC78 - Terry has also come back to me via the IFCP site.

 

One of my sons is going to fork out for the death certificate as an early birthday present

 

Cheers,

Peter

[BarbaraG]

£7.50 online - a bargain. What does a pint cost now? Will remember to mention to our sons the precedent above 

Edited 5 June , 2021 by BarbaraG

[chrisharley9]

and I of course will supply the burial register.

 

Chris

[PRC]

Well pride may come before a fall, but having spent a working lifetime negotiating labyrinthine bureaucracies I thought I'd give this a try and have today submitted a case for Sydney George Dunton as a Non-commemoration..

The death certificate came back with cause of death (1) Tubercular disease of both lungs, 10 months and (2) Exhaustion. The death was reported by his father, Mr. J. A. Dunton, of 4 Rutland Street, Norwich, who was present at the death - which ties in name and place wise with the surviving service record.

I used my first opportunity to get into the Local Studies section of the Norwich Forum Library for a 1 hour slot to look up the Norwich Cemetery records. A very limited reopening was started at the beginning of June 2021.

Both the 1916 Burial register for "Sydney" George Dunton and the 1943 Burial register for James Alexander Duntion show them to be buried in Section 36, Plot 103

The plot number and name spelling is the same in the 1916 Burial Index.

So for now I have fed the beast and will wait to see what pops out.

Thanks to all who have contributed to get this far.

Cheers
Peter

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

So for now I have fed the beast and will wait to see what pops out.

I'm sure you will have made a good and detailed pitch.  Good luck!   Patience is a virtue!! ;-0

:-) M

[PRC]

At the time of submission all I got was a screen acknowledgment - no reference number or subsequent automated e-mail. Over the last few days I was beginning to get to the stage where I was wondering if anything had really been received or had the internet gobbled it up.

So for those unfamiliar with the process I thought I'd document my experiences here.

This afternoon I have had an acknowledgment e-mail and confirmation that the submission has passed it's first hurdle. The information supplied was sufficient for it to be considered. The case now has an internal tracking number - ARMY 11271 - Sydney George Dunton.

It has been passed to the Army for assessment and adjudication - for which I am advised there is a large backlog.

So if the 12th July 2021 when I submitted the case was Day 1, first hurdle was passed on Day 25.

Cheers,
Peter

[chrisharley9]

Peter

 

I have access to the Norwich burial records so no need to go to the archives.

 

Chris

[PRC]

Just seen in the new CWGC Commemorations for the 5th November 2021 that Sidney George Dunton is listed. That would make it Day 117.

We shall remember them,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

Just seen in the new CWGC Commemorations for the 5th November 2021 that Sidney George Dunton is listed. That would make it Day 117.

Well done Peter really chuffed for you. :-)

Really glad you posted today.

I am pleased to report that I note from the list posted by Terry Denham today that one of my personal attempts at a non-comm submission this year has also been accepted :-) = 309 days

Its a real shame the process doesn't give you a reference number at point of submission and then a more personal direct acknowledgement of success - I would have missed my fellow being commemorated [at least at this first opportunity to see] had it not been for your post today, so many thanks.

So many thanks also to Terry for posting the periodic list. @Terry Denham

Again, for my fellow [like Denton] in the UK Book of Remembrance at the moment, though his grave is known and details supplied [like Denton] - Why no detail?

Also a shame that the non-IFCP project such as ours do not have cause of death listed - even though we both have supplied such details. ?? :-/

However, as you say = We shall remember them

  

:-) M

Edited 5 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
added a mention

[PaulC78]

On 05/11/2021 at 19:29, Matlock1418 said:

Again, for my fellow [like Denton] in the UK Book of Remembrance at the moment, though his grave is known and details supplied [like Denton] - Why no detail?

Also a shame that the non-IFCP project such as ours do not have cause of death listed - even though we both have supplied such details. ?? :-/

Grave verification is a separate process that only begins when a casualty is accepted.

Don't forget that Terry Denham will only know the cause of death for the IFCP cases!

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

Grave verification is a separate process that only begins when a casualty is accepted.

Don't forget that Terry Denham will only know the cause of death for the IFCP cases!

Paul,

Thanks for replying.

I probably don't know the process as well as IFCP members [as exactly which organisations do what, and what, and likely timescales once submitted to CWGC]

Hopefully, some further reply(ies) from CWGC regarding acceptance and the other matter of grave verification - now awaited with interest,

As for cause of death it's fair point, I did wonder about it possibly not being known by Terry, since I don't know how Terry gets his feed [on IFCP & non-IFCP] and or how much info for his valuable and much appreciated posts on GWF [which I, and I am sure Peter, will continue to regularly look at in hopeful anticipation of further commemorations ... In hope!]

Cheers.

:-) M

[PRC]

The picture of the headstone on Flickr has had a comment posted earlier this afternoon pointing me at the In from the Cold Twitter feed. Apparently:-

The following IFCP 'Grave Finds' have been verified by CWGC and are now official war graves in their care.
LONGSTAFF, James Caldwell 11.02.17 Buried in Glasgow (Craigton) Cemetery
BYLES, Frederick George 07.09.18
DUNTON, Sydney George 25.07.16 Buried in Norwich Cemetery, Norfolk

His CWGC webpage has been updated accordingly. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75467616/sydney-george-dunton/

Submitted 12th July 2021 (Day 1).
CWGC accept basic conditions are met and referred to the Army.  5th August 2021 (Day 25).
Added to CWGC Roll of War Dead. 5th November 2021 (Day 117).
Grave taken under management. 11th October 2022 (Day 457).

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

Well done Peter - Thanks for your communication [you don't comment on any from CWGC]

May he RIP 

M

[PRC]

Just a heads up - the reason for previous non-communication is that the CWGC management system had assigned the case and any subsequent communication to a member of staff who no longer worked there. Apparently the system automatically shuts tasks down as completed after a period of time has elapsed even without any staff input.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Just a heads up - the reason for previous non-communication is that the CWGC management system had assigned the case and any subsequent communication to a member of staff who no longer worked there. Apparently the system automatically shuts tasks down as completed after a period of time has elapsed even without any staff input.

Thanks for this.

Interesting to know but leaves me wondering even about several of my cases from last year - was told more than six months ago that they were to be commemorated [one example "He will be added to our Casualty Database in due course, and we’ll be in touch again to notify you once this happens" and from another "We are instigating some updates to the uploading process, hence the delays"] but commemorations have not been posted and no communications.

Even more interesting would be to know from CWGC would be, what they have done about it and any outstanding/'hung-up' tasks - most especially getting the commemorations done [in such cases communication with researchers would seem somewhat secondary, but a still necessary, task].

M