Kilcoyne, Thomas, Connaught Rangers & R.A.O.C

[archangel9]

Hi,

 

Recently got access to Fold3 via WFA and have found additional information on my Great Grandfather. The document attached seems to indicate that he died in 1924, which he did not, so possibly just a clerical error but of greater interest is the regiments listed. We know from his MIC and some pension records on Ancestry that he was with the R.A.O.C after transferring from 5th Bn Connaught Rangers but this seems to indicate service with the Royal Munster Fusiliers and Royal Irish Fusiliers. If correct I am assuming neither was in a theatre of war as they are not included on his MIC. Unfortunately his Connaught Rangers service records seem to have been destroyed along with the majority of records for 5th Bn men. Interested in what members make of his Fold3 documents?

 

Thanks

John

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with your interpretation.  It seems likely that he served initially with Reserve units of the RMF and RIF and perhaps joined a general draft before being redirected at an Infantry Base Depot in Etaples.  @kenf48might be able to clarify.

[Matlock1418]

 

31 minutes ago, archangel9 said:

The document attached seems to indicate that he died in 1924, which he did not,

The DEAD stamp annotated 4.3.24 is normally indicative that the pension claim was dead then, not necessarily the man.

:-) M

Edited 2 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
added date

[Allan1892]

As you suggest, the notation of 'dead 4.3.24' seems to be a clerical error as another pension card for him on Fold3 has dates into 1930.

 

I have had a quick search and can not find him in the Munsters or the Royal Irish.

[Matlock1418]

22 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

another pension card for him on Fold3 has dates into 1930.

Interesting to note that on another Pension Ledger Card in different inks, perhaps suggestive of different dates, there are two disabilities claimed:

Malaria = Due

Heart trouble = No disability found

My feeling was that the original 1919 'Chelsea' pension card was most likely for the Malaria and was likely ended [and card marked DEAD] and a later claim for Heart trouble submitted but rejected with correspondence and further annotations continuing into the 1930's.

With that in mind I have now looked at the back of the ledger card and I think the numerous annotations there confirm my feeling.

First claim was made Final in 1921/22 and a later claim in 1922 No grounds for award in respect of late disability and Appeal disallowed in 1922

:-) M

 

Edit:  I think the DEAD stamp and 1924 annotation on the original card in the OP is quite likely to be an audit/final closure entry - so not an error

Edited 2 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[museumtom]

Pre war service under under Kilcoyne, No 1252?

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F1170%2F233%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO96%2F1170%2F1579776

[archangel9]

Thanks very much gentlemen. 

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with your interpretation.  It seems likely that he served initially with Reserve units of the RMF and RIF and perhaps joined a general draft before being redirected at an Infantry Base Depot in Etaples.  @kenf48might be able to clarify.

I believe he joined at Boyle in Roscommon and signed up for the Connaught Rangers but perhaps not. I was going on the assumption that the two Fusiliers regiments were after the RAOC in 1918/19 but before going to 5th Bn CRs in Salonika makes a lot more sense. I think I read somewhere that the reserves of southern Irish regiments were all stationed in Cork during 1914/15 but cannot remember where I got this information from.

[archangel9]

3 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

As you suggest, the notation of 'dead 4.3.24' seems to be a clerical error as another pension card for him on Fold3 has dates into 1930.

 

I have had a quick search and can not find him in the Munsters or the Royal Irish.

I am going on the assumption that no records of his time with either regiment still exists. The 5th Bn Connaughts service records seem to have all been destroyed in the Blitz and so anything with them probably went too. 

Thanks

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, archangel9 said:

Thanks very much gentlemen. 

I believe he joined at Boyle in Roscommon and signed up for the Connaught Rangers but perhaps not. I was going on the assumption that the two Fusiliers regiments were after the RAOC in 1918/19 but before going to 5th Bn CRs in Salonika makes a lot more sense. I think I read somewhere that the reserves of southern Irish regiments were all stationed in Cork during 1914/15 but cannot remember where I got this information from.

Only units served with overseas in theatres of war appear on MIC, so it seems less likely that he joined RMF and RIF late in the war, albeit the emergency need for infantry in late Spring 1918 did lead to service support corps such as AOC and ASC being combed out for men, though they had to lower standards substantially to do so.  More likely that he was initially among the Reserve for southern Irish regiments I think.

Edited 2 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[archangel9]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Interesting to note that on another Pension Ledger Card in different inks, perhaps suggestive of different dates, there are two disabilities claimed:

Malaria = Due

Heart trouble = No disability found

My feeling was that the original 1919 'Chelsea' pension card was most likely for the Malaria and was likely ended [and card marked DEAD] and a later claim for Heart trouble submitted but rejected with correspondence and further annotations continuing into the 1930's.

With that in mind I have now looked at the back of the ledger card and I think the numerous annotations there confirm my feeling.

First claim was made Final in 1921/22 and a later claim in 1922 No grounds for award in respect of late disability and Appeal disallowed in 1922

:-) M

 

Edit:  I think the DEAD stamp and 1924 annotation on the original card in the OP is quite likely to be an audit/final closure entry - so not an error

I saw the two claims but couldn't decypher the annotations. That all makes sense now. He suffered with Malaria for the rest of his life and lived until 1947 I believe.  Great to have clarification. He did get £8 for a Donkey and Cart though:-)

[archangel9]

1 hour ago, museumtom said:

Pre war service under under Kilcoyne, No 1252?

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F1170%2F233%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO96%2F1170%2F1579776

Yes Tom. I have his pre war service records with the Sligo Artillery. Just a pity his Connaught Rangers time wasn't with them.

Thanks

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, archangel9 said:

He did get £8 for a Donkey and Cart though

That I presume would be a Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Grant - I my experience of seeing such claims on WFA/Fold3 the Irish do seem to have had a substantial share of them!

:-) M

[archangel9]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

That I presume would be a Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Grant - I my experience of seeing such claims on WFA/Fold3 the Irish do seem to have had a substantial share of them!

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, archangel9 said:

He did get £8 for a Donkey and Cart though

This £8 did seem rather low to me for a Donkey and Cart and has been niggling me.

From memory [having rather annoyingly misplaced my research notes :-(] = I seem to recall that for a Donkey and Cart around £25 would typically do it, with perhaps a bit extra for start-up stock [though for a Horse and Cart it could go to £50+ !!!]

Looking again at his cards it appears in 1921 the £8 was additional to a previous amount ... so perhaps we need to look out for another MS(CL) Grant card [I've not found one yet]

:-) M

 

Edit: 

A Donkey and Cart was a very typical purchase by the Irish - commonly for peripatetic sales of turf, or similar sales, or carting etc. [In England it was commonly for the equivalent sale of coal etc.]

The maximum MS(CL) grant was £104, but I have only ever seen one of those - a chap who bought a taxi cab - Motor I would presume at that price!].

Edited 2 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Matlock1418]

Also whilst looking at Thomas Killcoyne 042903 pension cards I noted another one with two new Regimental Numbers for you to consider 5390 and M/1818

I can't interpret them [not my field] but I hope they help you.

:-) M

 

Edit:  Found a MIC for:

KILCOYNE, Thomas.  Pte. 

Connaught Rangers, 4/5390 and AOC, 042903

1914-15 Star, BWM, & VM

(2B), 6-11-15  [Gallipoli]

From TNA: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3240741

Rather makes me think the M/1818 might perhaps be a Munster's no.

Edited 2 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[FROGSMILE]

My pitch for his chronology then:

 

1.  Prewar with the Sligo Volunteer Artillery (auxiliaries).

 

2.  Early war with the RMF and RIF as part of the early build up of Reserve units.  A common start point for slightly older men with auxiliary experience.

 

3.  Eventually deployed as a general draft to IBD France and sent to 5th Connaught Rangers.

 

4.  Wounded or sick (or both) and on recovery downgraded by a medical board and sent to the Army Ordnance Corps (an ideal billet for a man with experience of artillery equipment).

Edited 2 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

3.  Eventually deployed as a general draft to IBD France and sent to 5th Connaught Rangers.

Not so sure about this bit and France [???] - MIC has first ToW as 2B [Gallipoli & Mudros / MEF I think]

LLT has this about 5CR:

5th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Dublin in August 1914 as part of K1 and placed under orders of 29th Brigade in 10th (Irish) Division. Moved to Kilworth but back to Dublin in October. Moved to the Curragh in January 1915.
May 1915 : moved to Hackwood Park (Basingstoke).
9 July 1915: embarked at Devonport and sailed to Gallipoli via Mudros.
Landed Anzac Cove 5 August 1915.
30 September 1915 : moved via Mudros to Salonika.
September 1917 : moved to Egypt for service in Palestine.
30 April 1918 : left the Division and sailed from Port Said, arriving Marseilles 1 June.
23 July 1918 : came briefly under command of 14th (Light) Division.
22 July 1918 : placed under command of 197th Brigade in 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division.

:-) M

Edited 2 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Tweak ToW

[FROGSMILE]

Yes you’re right I didn’t pay proper attention to the theatre of war.  I had meant wherever 5th Connaught Rangers were sent, but failed to make that clear.  In short delete France, insert M.E.F.

Edited 2 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE