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Anzac - Uniform/Regiment/Rank identification.


Mauriceo

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3 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Fly in the ointment still alive post war but was that a smokescreen? 

It’s quite possible.  There was no concrete evidence that he was dead. 

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4 minutes ago, Mauriceo said:

Abandonment a possibility, the plot thickens!!


We have to keep it in mind that he might not be the father at all.  The poor fellow could be entirely innocent. The fact that he was a clergyman during those socially straitened times makes his guilt unlikely I think, but still waters run deep and they were emotional years between 14 and 18.  DNA is the only way to be sure.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Does any of his handwriting in his service record match the handwriting in the book? 

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That's a good one I will certainly check that out, equally important would be his postings, was he even back in this country at the time of conception?

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There is a letter in the records from a Miss Parkinson. Does that ring any bells Maurice? 

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Not a name I've come across, from this end we are talking Batchelors (a name to conjure with under the circumstances!) on my grandmothers side and Lang as the name of the groom.

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Well looking at his service records, he was 6 '0 in height and he towers over the other guests. Also noting, his signing off as 'Jack' and the other  writing does look very similar to what is written on his papers for enlistment. Interesting to se he enlisted as a private and then commissioned which is inline for him to be a lieutenant in 1918 at time of discharge.

 

Name John Stafford Farrer  [1
Known as "Stafford" 
Birth 08 Mar 1890  Wellington, NZ
Residence - 1916  Seaview Crescent, Black Rock, VIC 
Military Service May 1916 - Jul 1919  Lieutenant, 3rd Field Artillery Brigade, AIF 
  • Embarked from Melbourne, Victoria, on board HMAT A7 Medic on 20 May 1916; returned to Australia 18 July 1919.
Occupation 1919  Grazier 
Residence 1919  Taggerty, VIC
Occupation abt 1924 -  Clergyman 
Residence 1924  Hotel Mansions, Warrnambool, VIC
Occupation 1927 - 1929  St Margaret, Mildura, VIC
Residence 1931  Red Cliffs, VIC
Residence 1933  Rectory, O'Connell, NSW
Residence 1949  Swan Hill, VIC
Residence 1954  Vicarage, Wallace Avenue, Bendigo, VIC
Residence 1963  1 Dungey Avenue, Bendigo, VIC
Residence 1968  Chelsea Avenue, Ocean Grove, VIC
Death 23 Mar 1971  Ocean Grove, VIC Find all individuals with events at this location   [5, 6
  • The Reverend John Stafford Farrer died on 23rd March 1971. He later served in the parishes of Maryborough and Swan Hill within this diocese. A Requiem Eucharist was held here at 10 am on Weds 5 May 1971. [Northern Mallee Anglican Church, Mildura]
Notes 
  • also listed in 1954, 1963, 1968 electoral roll: Constance Mary Farrer, home duties - possibly 2nd wife or a daughter?
  • May Elizabeth Stanley Hooper,   b. abt 1889, Australia? Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 26 Feb 1952, Melbourne, VIC Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 63 years)  (Possible first wife?
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Well done Mattr82, great research - I'm in Australia and have been researching on Ancestry here. Your post has beaten me to it! John Stafford Farrer is definitely our man in the photo. Interesting that the Victorian Electoral Roll in 1919 gives his occupation as "grazier" (farmer in the UK) - this is consistent with his army record which shows he went on an education course to Ayr in Scotland to learn farming from 19/3/19 - 19/6/19. He must have attempted this for a couple of years when first back in Australia, but returned to his original vocation of Anglican priest until retirement. He passed away in 1971 aged 81. 

Is John Stafford Mauriceo's grandfather?

 The case for - Mauriceo said he thought that his grandmother was conceived around July/August 1918. John Farrer's army records have him in the UK on leave from 14/9/18, returning to France 28/9/18. Another entry, either correct or incorrect, states 6/9/18 to 24/9/18 - so either way we have him in the UK in September 1918. This is consistent with a child being conceived around this period and being born in early May 1919, perhaps overdue. His records also show that he spent from 18/7/16 to 25/3/17, some 7 months or so in the UK, so there is the possibility that he may have met the Batchelor family in that time and was known to them. He must have been known to get a wedding invitation unless it was through the groom who it appears was his mate.

The case against - the gift book given to Mauriceo's grandmother is signed "Jack" with the date "Jan 19/18". I take this to read January 19, 1918 which was a Saturday. His records have him between Belgium and France during that time.  In comparing the handwriting, the loop at the top of the J here is much more pronounced and rounded than the J where John Stafford signs his name in quite a few entries in this army file. His J does not have the same flourish that the J in the gift book does.

 The date of the wedding photo 28/11/17 makes me suspicious of the accuracy of army records- Farrer's records have him in France/Belgium at that time, yet here he is large as life in the UK on that day!

I could lean to the case for - given that he was an Anglican priest doesn't mean that this situation couldn't have happened. I have read of a South Australian minister of religion, married with children, who joined the AIF and went to France with his battalion. He met and married a woman in the UK and never returned back to Australia. I have a personal French friend living in Albert France, who is the granddaughter of an Australian WW1 soldier. He had an affair with her grandmother towards the end of the war and did a runner back to Australia when he found she was pregnant! When she (my friend's grandmother) tried to track him down in Australia during the '20's she received a letter back from his mother saying that (a) her son would never have done such a thing and (b) in any case, he'd gone to the USA! A few years ago I managed to track his family down in Melbourne - my French friend contacted them and are now the best of friends. They were unaware of their grandad's activities in France and surprised to know they had French relatives!

 

 

 

 

 

The date of the wedding photo is 28/11/17 - his record show him between Belgium and France

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Does it say father unknown on your mothers birth certificate?  

 

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I must say I admire everyones interest, staying power and resourcefulness on this one.

Taking each of your points:- 

1. My mothers Birth Cert. states exactly that:- May Diana Batchelor born on 9 May 1919 in Eastbourne, Sussex, the daughter of Mary and (Unknown).

2. You have now convinced me beyond doubt that the best man in the wedding photo is J S Farrer Lt AIF.

3. I agree that his handwriting does not match that which we see as the hand of 'Jack'

4. His postings do not tie him in accurately at the time of conception but then they do not place him at the wedding either. I shall look at the grooms records again to see if his records tell the same story.

5. The one thing that revives my interest - and I would very much welcome your comments on this one because I think it is rather spooky - are the notes in his records (as reproduced above by Mattr82) where it states:-

Notes 
  • also listed in 1954, 1963, 1968 electoral roll: Constance Mary Farrer, home duties - possibly 2nd wife or a daughter?
  • May Elizabeth Stanley Hooper,   b. abt 1889, Australia? Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 26 Feb 1952, Melbourne, VIC Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 63 years)  (Possible first wife?

when the two sisters central to this mystery just happen to be Constance Batchelor (The Bride)

947631625_Scan1.jpg.1f99fc5f18d5068815b3684c929f3321.jpg

and Mary Batchelor (my grandmother)

93965201_Scan2.jpg.9d4c283c268fe4cb00e2d500aa23e9bc.jpg

 

 

Pure coincidence ?

 

You have to ask yourself "What are the chances of that"

 

I think I need to know exactly who this lady was, don't you?

 

6. I have taken a DNA test and received hundreds of matches and it could well be that their is a descendant of my grandfathers (whoever he turns out to be)amongst them. The most frustrating thing is that the majority of matches are with people who do not have fully researched trees either because they want everything done for them or because somebody bought the test as a gift and that's as far as their curiosity goes. So a one-sided test doesn't seem to be that helpful - at the moment. 

 

But it looks like it might have to be the long shot.

 

 

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I agree that the names do seem an extraordinary coincidence.  I wish you well with your search and can only encourage you to try and trace the descendants of John Farrer.  You will always wonder ‘what if’ else....

 

Afternote:  the newspaper article confirms that he was an officer of the Australian Field Artillery.  It’s possible that he attended the overseas artillery school that took place jointly at Chapperton Down (field firing) and Salisbury (lectures).  See:

 

1. http://www.gutenberg-e.org/mas01/archive/app20.html

 

2.https://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/rcaa/militaryarchaeology2.pdf

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hairline and jaw line in both photos are similar 

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45 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Hairline and jaw line in both photos are similar 

Yes, like you I’m confident it’s definitely him in both photos.

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OP, Regarding DNA there will be hundreds of distant cousins, but consentrate on the highest half dozen matches you get, that's where you will find your grandfathers link. It worked for me. Good luck.

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16 hours ago, Mauriceo said:

I must say I admire everyones interest, staying power and resourcefulness on this one.

Taking each of your points:- 

1. My mothers Birth Cert. states exactly that:- May Diana Batchelor born on 9 May 1919 in Eastbourne, Sussex, the daughter of Mary and (Unknown).

2. You have now convinced me beyond doubt that the best man in the wedding photo is J S Farrer Lt AIF.

3. I agree that his handwriting does not match that which we see as the hand of 'Jack'

4. His postings do not tie him in accurately at the time of conception but then they do not place him at the wedding either. I shall look at the grooms records again to see if his records tell the same story.

5. The one thing that revives my interest - and I would very much welcome your comments on this one because I think it is rather spooky - are the notes in his records (as reproduced above by Mattr82) where it states:-

Notes 
  • also listed in 1954, 1963, 1968 electoral roll: Constance Mary Farrer, home duties - possibly 2nd wife or a daughter?
  • May Elizabeth Stanley Hooper,   b. abt 1889, Australia? Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 26 Feb 1952, Melbourne, VIC Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 63 years)  (Possible first wife?

when the two sisters central to this mystery just happen to be Constance Batchelor (The Bride)

947631625_Scan1.jpg.1f99fc5f18d5068815b3684c929f3321.jpg

 

and Mary Batchelor (my grandmother)

 

93965201_Scan2.jpg.9d4c283c268fe4cb00e2d500aa23e9bc.jpg

 

Pure coincidence ?

 

You have to ask yourself "What are the chances of that"

 

I think I need to know exactly who this lady was, don't you?

 

6. I have taken a DNA test and received hundreds of matches and it could well be that their is a descendant of my grandfathers (whoever he turns out to be)amongst them. The most frustrating thing is that the majority of matches are with people who do not have fully researched trees either because they want everything done for them or because somebody bought the test as a gift and that's as far as their curiosity goes. So a one-sided test doesn't seem to be that helpful - at the moment. 

 

But it looks like it might have to be the long shot.

 

 

Mauriceo - you ask "I think I need to know exactly who this lady was". Constance Mary Farrer was the Rev. John Farrer's second wife. She was born in Broadford, Victoria in 1892, her maiden name being Hudson. She married a Willie Orange in 1920 - I believe he died some years later, leaving her a widow. Rev. John Farrer's wife, May Elizabeth (nee Hoops) was killed in a car accident in Melbourne, Victoria aged about 63 in 1952, thus leaving Farrer a widower.

At that time, Rev. Farrer was an Anglican minister in Bendigo, Victoria - the widow Constance Mary Orange was also living in Bendigo, probably one of his parishioners. They were married in 1953, so he didn't waste much time in getting hitched up again. Constance Mary lived until 10/7/1992, which would have made her 100 years of age.

I can find no record of any children from his first marriage to May Elizabeth - Constance Mary was 61 when she remarried Rev. Farrer, so no children there.

Stanley Morton Lang (the NZ bridegroom) died 1/9/1970 and Constance Evelyn (the bride and your great aunt) died 19/4/1979.

I'm Australian and have good access to our records, so let me know if I can be of any further help.

Regards,

Bruce

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Dear All,

Brilliant researching!

He was unmistakeable in the press photo, too...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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As someone who does delve into facial recognition in my line of work...I can say with about 80% confidence, that it is J.S Farrer in the wedding photo. Whilst the dates may tie him in with back in Belgium, the records of the AIF are not always correct. One of my relatives was killed on the 04 August but AIF have him killed on 10th August AFTER his battalion had come out of the line. Leave dates aren't the most correct especially if he was granted extra leave. His handwriting is similar on his enlistment and signature. The J and the A slope and curve in proximity to consistent application throughout enlistment.

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What an amazing site this is, as if you hadn't all taken me far enough already along you come and willingly go that extra mile. Thank you so much Bruce L that is well beyond the call of duty - and just when I was wondering who I knew in Australia who would be up to the task!

So Constance Mary turns out to be his second wife and not a daughter, less spooky perhaps but still a remarkable coincidence by any stretch of the imagination. Pity that there weren't any children from either marriage, that will make a direct DNA match unlikely although he did have siblings so I guess there is still a chance.

 1849056308_Screenshot2021-06-04xat06_51_20.jpg.84e0f773ce96edc6755aa06671eb1e43.jpg

 

Of course I might be barking up the wrong tree altogether but at least we have all of the pieces in place should J S Farrer Lt AIF turn out to be the father he never knew he was.

 

Or did he?

 

The case remains OPEN.

 

Two final questions (perhaps for you BRUCE L if I could trouble you further):-

1. Since our investigation has ended up in Australia can I ask "Just how important is Family History down there"? One has the impression that it would be just as important, if not more so, given your countries past but has it taken off in the same way commercially with the likes of Ancestry.co and T.V programmes like our 'Who do you think you are'. I'm curious because it hasn't really been possible to judge from the people I know who live there. 

2. I was given the link to this site by a volunteers from the Berkshire Yeomanry Museum who helped me research (equally brilliantly) the WW1 service records of my grandfather on the other side of my family. They were so helpful that I am wondering if there are Australian equivalents to our museums - that would hold regimental records and photo's etc. - or would I be looking for a different organisation should I need to probe Lt. J S Farrer further down the line?

 

 

 

 

 

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I kind of guess people in Australia do take an interest in it. I certainly do!

 

And as to answer your other question - "They were so helpful that I am wondering if there are Australian equivalents to our museums - that would hold regimental records and photo's etc. - or would I be looking for a different organisation should I need to probe Lt. J S Farrer further down the line?" - We certainly do. Military history in Australia is MASSIVE. Our biggest/most important day of the year as a nation is ANZAC Day. I have attached  link to the 3 FAB that LT. Farrer was with. It has all the unit diaries and photos you need :)

 

Whenever I'm in Canberra, I visit the Australian War Memorial. In fact, there's a pic up on the wall there that I am in and my girlfriend was most happy when we went there and she saw me!

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/U51226

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Mauriceo - in answer to your questions. I believe the majority of people in Australia are interested in family history, certainly all the people I mix with are. All my friends and acquaintances are very knowledgeable of where their ancestors have come from and what they did. Nearly all towns, even small country ones, have both historical and genealogical societies that have information galore. I've worked in small country towns in Australia and the enthusiasm of volunteers who run these places is incredible - some devote their lives to it. So yes, it is a big thing. All the websites like Ancestry, My Heritage, etc advertising DNA testing are regularly seen on tv here. We also have the tv show "Who Do You Think You Are" where some Australian celebrity inevitably ends up in a courtroom somewhere in the UK where his/her ggggrandfather was transported to New South Wales for the theft of a shirt! No convicts in my British ancestors however!

As Mattr82 has commented, the Australian War Memorial in Canberra is the largest repository of all things military in Australia. A huge collection of everything - in fact so much, that most of it is in storage. They have an enquires section that will provide information on requests, I believe it is still a free service. All the states of Australia have their own separate military museums covering the three arms of the military - Army, Navy and Air Force. They are then broken down into separate associations of units, battalions, ships, squadrons etc - the list goes on. For example, in the most recent Brisbane Anzac Day March on 25 April 2021, over 70 different Army associations alone were represented - combined that with the other two services and the march through the streets of Brisbane takes nearly 2 hours. I am a member of the 31st Battalion Association which traces its formation back to the AIF in WW1. There is a plethora of military knowledge, museums, associations etc here in Australia.

In "normal" times my wife and myself live in the Somme village of Authuille for 6 months of the year. I work as a battlefield guide for an Australian company that specialises in small group tours, maximum of 6 people. All our clients are Australian who want to see where their grandfathers, great uncles etc fought - I would say that at least 90% of those people have done great research on their relative's war service before arriving in France - all using facilities available in Australia. I've had some remarkable experiences with our clients - on many occasions visiting the exact locations where bravery awards were won. One memorable day out took us to the railway embankment at Dernancourt, the site of an Australian VC action. Stood there with the relatives exactly 100 years ago to the day that the event took place. What a great feeling for everyone there.

There's a lot of information here in Australia - it's just having the time and energy to ferret about and find the right connection to what you are looking for. Look how far your initial enquiry has led from an old black and white wedding photo!

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My first question might have sounded rather dumb but having traced ancestors to that part of the world once before and found so little enthusiasm among their descendants it had made me question my assumptions, so thank you for restoring my faith and bringing clarity there.

Thank you for also pointing me in the right direction with regard to regimental records and for painting such a wonderfully clear picture of the interest and respect your nation has for it's military past.    

In fact I am grateful for everything I have learned on this forum and it's been a privilege to witness everyones effort in to getting me to what must be the end point (for now) in this intriguing little enquiry.

I've enjoyed the result of every incoming 'ping' on my computer. 

Edited by Mauriceo
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