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Help with military history.


hoppo1
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Would any of you experts on here be able to assist with this research? I'm unable to find his military records. Appreciate a lot of soldiers served under false names etc. but as per the photo I have what appears to be unit and when enlisted / discharged but still no luck.

 

H.C Maltbty died in 1921 in a mining accident at Blackwell Pit. (coroners report below). As per the photo served with the Machine Gun Corp enlisted 27/4/18 discharged 10/1/19 and saw action at Tincourt and Hamel. 

 

H.C is actually just Cecil Maltby. Have no idea what the H could stand for assume he went by another name other than Cecil.

 

Cecil was born June 1898 by the looks of things. Out of wedlock. His mother being Mary Maltby. In 1911 he was living with his mother and stepfather and this is where another name gets thrown into the pot - he is now Cecil Mosley after his step dad.

 

In 1920 he married as Cecil Maltby and in 1921 he dies and is buried as Cecil Maltby so it's probably safe to assume he served as Cecil Maltby? 

 

The only Cecil Maltby that may fit that I can find is 316413 Cecil Maltby but he served with the Tank Corps. I believe being in the tank corps at that time would place him at Tincourt?  Could he have been a machine gunner in the tank corps rather than MGC? Could the photo just be wrong?

 

Have tried looking for all 3 names but not had much luck and would appreciate any pointers

 

thanks

Phil.

 

An unusual kind of a fatality in a coal mine was investigated at Chesterfield on Saturday. It was an enquiry into the death of a miner who fell from a train of tubs, on which he was riding to his work. The explanation was believed something had gone wrong with the train, in point of fact the hook by which the train was fastened to the haulage rope had broken, but he stood up with the intention of getting out, and caught his head on a pulley in the roof. A fractured skull resulted and he fell into a manhole. He was taken to the Chesterfield Hospital, where he died a few hours later. The deceased was Cecil Maltby, a young married man, of 23, who leaves a widow and one child. His home was at 27, Hilcote Street, South Normanton. Creswell Aldred, of 45, Blackwell Colliery, a corporal, said the accident happened at the A Winning Colliery, Blackwell, last Friday morning, as the men were on their way to the stalls. It was about a mile from the pit bottom to their working place and the men rode in tubs. There were 36 tubs, and Maltby was about half way up the train. On the way witness noticed something had gone wrong, as he noticed the train was running easier, and he jumped off into a manhole. He had to wait until the train had passed before he could give the signal to stop. Directly after he got off, Maltby fell into the manhole. Apparently he had caught his head which was bleeding, on the roof and he dell into the manhole face downwards. In Reply to Mr. J. Hall, Inspector of Mines, Aldred, said that five other men jumped out of the train, but they were alright. Those he stayed on the train were uninjured, and no damage happened to the train itself. Mr. Jon Spencer, representing the Derbyshire Miners Association, suggested that Maltby, saw Aldred, probably leave the train and thinking something was wrong he followed his example. Thomas Aldred of 73, Blackwell Colliery, and father of the corporal in charge, said there was a flaw in the hook by which the tubs were fastened. It was last examined the night before, and then seemed all right. Benjamin Woodhead, of Newton, who was riding in the same tub as Maltby, said as the train began to gain speed Maltby, got up to leave, He went so quickly that witness did not actually see him fall. Mr. Thomas Henry Elliot, the manager of the pit, produced the broken hook in which there were two distinct flaws. The hook was liable to break any moment, with an unusual strain, but he said he would not describe it as very faulty. The flaws could not be detected beforehand. A statement from the house surgeon at the hospital showed Maltby died two hours after admission from shock, the result of a fractured skull. The jury returned a verdict of “Accidental death”. Mr. Elliott, on behalf of the Blackwell Company, expressed condolences to the relatives of Maltby, who he described as a man of exemplary conduct, and everyone thought a great deal of him. He was a nephew of the undermanager. The inquest was held at Hollywell House, and was conducted by Dr. Green. There were present Mr. J. Hall, Mines  Inspector, Mr. C. F. Elliot Smith, and Mr. G. R. Binns, Coal Owners Indemnity Association. Mr. John Spencer, Derbyshire Miners Association, and Mr. Elliot. Manager.

 

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The “heavy branch” of the MGC was initially the corps developing the use of the then new tanks as a military force that could breakthrough the stalemate of the Western Front.  They then broke away (were renamed) as the Tank Corps (TC).  It’s entirely possible (likely even) that your subject started off in the MGC, but then became absorbed by the TC.  The men concerned started off wearing MGC insignia and then gradually transitioned to the new TC insignia as it was developed and introduced.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, hoppo1 said:

The only Cecil Maltby that may fit that I can find is 316413 Cecil Maltby but he served with the Tank Corps. I believe being in the tank corps at that time would place him at Tincourt?  Could he have been a machine gunner in the tank corps rather than MGC? Could the photo just be wrong?

Cautionary note: Non-expert knowledge! = Wasn't the Machine Gun Corp (Heavy Branch) the early pseudonym/forerunner of the Tank Corp?

:-) M

 

Edit; FS - we crossed! ;-)

Edited by Matlock1418
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13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The “heavy branch” of the MGC was initially the corps developing the use of the then new tanks as a military force that could breakthrough the stalemate of the Western Front.  They then broke away (were renamed) as the Tank Corps (TC).  It’s entirely possible (likely even) that your subject started off in the MGC, but then became absorbed by the TC.  The men concerned started off wearing MGC insignia and then gradually transitioned to the new TC insignia as it was developed and introduced.

I did look at the possibility of heavy branch but with Cecil enlisting April 1918 I thought the tank Corps was already formed etc.

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18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

316413 Cecil Maltby

He is elusive isn't he?

Only extra I could find was the corresponding Medal Roll - Indicates 13 Tank Corps which I believe mean 13th Battalion.

Here appears to be the relevant War Diary at the National Archives http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/13a97cb7812041dbaaf7a636aca17af2 [free to download at present]

:-) M

 

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Tincourt has a nearby CWGC cemetery. According to the CWGC the village was recaptured on about 6 Sep 1918 which may narrow down the war diary search.

 

C

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2 hours ago, hoppo1 said:

I did look at the possibility of heavy branch but with Cecil enlisting April 1918 I thought the tank Corps was already formed etc.

Yes that’s true.  It seems likely then that he initially joined the MGC, but subsequently transferred.

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Surviving service records indicate Pte. 316413 Maltby was in a cohort of coal miners ‘combed out’ of the industry in the Spring of 1918.  Joining the Army April/May, although some may have been on the Reserve since the introduction of conscription but had gained an occupational exemption from military service.

 

They were posted to the Training Reserve and from there 20th Training Reserve which became 1 Training Brigade MGC.  They were compulsorily transferred to the Tank Corps at Clipstone Camp after training prior to embarkation for France in mid- September 1918.  They went to the Tank Corps Depot, though I can’t find anyone who was posted to a Battalion before the 1st October.  

 

The problem is men in the 3159** series were not transferred until the 20th September, which is a bit late for the recapture of Tincourt mentioned above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The 13th Bn Tank Corps was based at Tincourt/Hamel in late September which would tie in with the arrival of Maltby's draft. From here the battalion went into action in composite companies and later attacked the Hindenburg Line late in the month. This might be an error on his part as a tank crewman may not have had a great idea of the locations he was travelling between and fighting at.

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Thank you @kenf48 and @Colin W Taylor It certainly looks like the right Cecil would you mind sharing where the info came from? Appreciate it may be subscription based though but would like to know for future reference. Also would there be any next of kin details that I could search there's no pension record for him.

 

thanks

Phil.

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7 hours ago, hoppo1 said:

Thank you @kenf48 and @Colin W Taylor It certainly looks like the right Cecil would you mind sharing where the info came from? Appreciate it may be subscription based though but would like to know for future reference. Also would there be any next of kin details that I could search there's no pension record for him.

 

 

The 'combing out'  of 50,000 coal miners for the Army was agreed on the 8th March and published in newspapers the following day:-

 

Screenshot 2021-05-31 at 14.30.00.png

Image BNA on FMP

 

Pte Maltby would have been in that category.

 

Near number sampling shows they were called up as above.  The MGC, along with other infantry regiments, suffered considerable loss during the German Spring Offensive which began on the 21 March.  A commensurate number of miners were directed towards the Corps, physical fitness especially upper body strength had been a consideration for recruits since the end of 1916.

We can identify these men by sampling near numbers of soldiers whose records survived.  The consequences of the Arnside warehouse fire were quite random and there are few in 3164** series but a comparatively larger number in the 3165** series. We can also look at those who were killed and wounded and assess the date to the BEF to corroborate the records.  Near number sampling does require a subscription but depending where you live as a consequence of the pandemic local libraries are offering access at home for free.  Here in East Sussex Ancestry needs to be accessed at the library but Find my Pas can be accessed at home if you have  a library card.

His next of kin would be his widow, you would need to access the 1911 Census to find family details.

 

One final point from me, as miners they were released from the Army as a priority after the Armistice. His service was probably less than a year.

 

My guess is Colin found their location from the war diary which has been linked on the thread above.

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