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EmmaDean

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On 30/05/2021 at 03:56, EmmaDean said:

Is there anything you don’t know?! 🤣😂 Thank you so much - again! Something else that is interesting (perhaps how Francis and Ellen met...?) is that Ellen’s father, William, is stated as having the same occupation on Francis and Ellen’s marriage certificate...

 

I am now even more confused as to why I can’t seem to find any records/correlation if Thomas had a full pensionable engagement (does that mean a full career in the military? Sorry 🙈)...??

 

🙏🏻🙏🏻

Yes a full pensionable engagement means a full career of at least 21 years.  In Thomas’s case (and men like him) that period is made up from the totality of his service as both soldier and officer.  It’s all totted up and meticulously calculated down to the last day.  It was a highly bureaucratic process and some very unfortunate men missed out by just short periods.  In good units and where a man was deserving, he would be aided by short extensions of service to make up the necessary time.  Men could also miss out because of days spent in military confinement (jail) undergoing punishment, as these did not count towards pension (as the man was not an effective soldier when confined), or because of days spent absent without leave (i.e. overstaying their authorised leave of absence (holiday)). 
 

NB.  It’s entirely probable that Ellen’s father was also a soldier if she was born in barracks. If so she would have been educated in barracks in the school there (taught by army schoolmasters and mistresses - see images) and she would also have had the opportunity to meet young soldiers providing her parents approved.  Many female army children grew up to marry soldiers, especially on garrison duty in places like India where the pool of potential suitors would all tend to come from the barracks.  It was also a world that the girls knew and were probably comfortable with, also having their mothers as examples to follow and aid them.

 

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C543DA24-00B7-43A3-A5D9-DAE9E28EB357.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, EmmaDean said:

These details show that there were also separate pensions for men discharged due to the “attributable” effects of service (medical grounds) and also reduced pensions for men who completed shorter engagements but for which the reformed terms and conditions provided them with a regular payment.  In effect this was not enough to live on in itself, but if added to other income would make a material difference and make the soldiers service worthwhile.  It’s possible that Thomas fell into one of these categories as a man might receive a pension for his length of service plus a separate one to reflect any disability.

 

NB.  It was critical that a medical board agreed after examination of a man’s case that his disability was attributable to service. If that could not be adequately proven then that type of pension might be turned down.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

These show that there were also separate pensions for men discharged due to the “attributable” effects of service (medical grounds) and also reduced pensions for men who completed shorter engagements but for which the reformed terms and conditions provided them with a regular payment.  In effect this was not enough to live on in itself, but if added to other income would make a material difference and make the soldiers service worthwhile.  It’s possible that Thomas fell into one of these categories as a man might receive a pension for his length of service plus a separate one to reflect any disability.

Thanks, as always, Frogsmile. Genuinely fascinating - can I be so bold as to ask where all of your knowledge comes from? I’m probably looking at the wrong thing then as far as Thomas is concerned - I got excited as I saw the mention of Chelsea Pensioners 😂🙈 I think one of the records refers to that Thomas living in Nova Scotia...can’t find any Francis George’s there either, but I think I sent myself off on a bit of a wild goose chase anyway!

 

I haven’t gotten as far as looking into Ellen too much yet - I’ve been too fixated on trying to figure Francis out. I’m also having a heck of a time piecing together the life of Gerald’s wife in her early years. I think I’m finally getting somewhere with that (I hope!).

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4 hours ago, EmmaDean said:

Thanks, as always, Frogsmile. Genuinely fascinating - can I be so bold as to ask where all of your knowledge comes from? I’m probably looking at the wrong thing then as far as Thomas is concerned - I got excited as I saw the mention of Chelsea Pensioners 😂🙈 I think one of the records refers to that Thomas living in Nova Scotia...can’t find any Francis George’s there either, but I think I sent myself off on a bit of a wild goose chase anyway!

 

I haven’t gotten as far as looking into Ellen too much yet - I’ve been too fixated on trying to figure Francis out. I’m also having a heck of a time piecing together the life of Gerald’s wife in her early years. I think I’m finally getting somewhere with that (I hope!).

I grew up with it Emma, fourth generation of continuous army service and such matters were either, discussed in connection with older family members, or part of my own direct experience.  The army was a deeply conservative organisation and did not change things unless it was forced to do so by reform.  I enlisted as a Boy soldier and like your forebear was eventually commissioned and then completed a second career retiring in my middle 50s.  My late wife was a soldier’s daughter and she was steeped in it too.  Added to this, army history was and remains my passion and so I’ve studied it all my life (a bit coals to Newcastle).  Finally and most importantly my service straddled the analogue and digital ages.  The first half used exactly the same forms, manuals of administration and protocols as the generations before with just small changes reflecting any advances (I know this because I examined and compared them).  The second half transitioned to the digital age and as an officer I went from writing sub unit orders by hand and sending them to a typing pool to be typed up and then printing them by hand (Gestetner copier), to being issued a desktop computer with a word processing programme (the typing pool made redundant) and reproducing the orders using a photocopier.  In effect my life spanned an administrative revolution away from the old ways, and I was among the very last to experience them. I don’t know everything, but I’ll help with what I know, and say openly if I don’t know.

 

NB.  With regards to RH Chelsea pension payments these could later be collected nearer to home (certainly after WW1) and it was no longer necessary to visit Chelsea annually to collect the money.  The pension lists were still maintained at Chelsea, but delivered via a network of regional administrative hubs.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I'm going to suggest that Francis George has had a name change somewhere along the line.

His WW1 medal record is very clear but if he was already in the army by 1901 you would surely hope to find a record of him pre WW1- those with more military knowledge than me can help out here.... and there appears to be absolutely nothing!

I've checked all the Francis Georges born in Devon for quite a few years either side of 1876 and there isn't even anything which looks like Woodhouse- there are a couple of Woodhouse families but no Thomas's.  There are a few children to Robert and wife (oops forgotten her name) Robert was a sailor.

Do you have more details on Thomas being in Nova Scotia?

I note that there is one Francis George Woodhouse in NZ in later years and one in Fiji- the name combination seems surprisingly uncommon so there is a chance that these are relatives of some kind.

There are very few Chelsea Pension records for Woodhouse none for a Thomas.- although there IS an earlier one for a Francis in the Household Cavalry- bonus for me was that my husband's ancestor Edwin Window was on the same batch of records :-D.

I'll keep looking, any more details however small you can let us all have would be really useful Emma :-)

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I grew up with it Emma, fourth generation of continuous army service and such matters were either, discussed in connection with older family members, or part of my own direct experience.  The army was a deeply conservative organisation and did not change things unless it was forced to do so by reform.  I enlisted as a Boy soldier and like your forebear was eventually commissioned and then completed a second career retiring in my middle 50s.  My late wife was a soldier’s daughter and she was steeped in it too.  Added to this, army history was and remains my passion and so I’ve studied it all my life (a bit coals to Newcastle).  Finally and most importantly my service straddled the analogue and digital ages.  The first half used exactly the same forms, manuals of administration and protocols as the generations before with just small changes reflecting any advances (I know this because I examined and compared them).  The second half transitioned to the digital age and as an officer I went from writing sub unit orders by hand and sending them to a typing pool to be typed up and then printing them by hand (Gestetner copier), to being issued with a computer inclusive of a word processing programme (the typing pool made redundant) and reproducing the orders using a photocopier.  In effect my life spanned an administrative revolution away from the old ways and I was among the last to experience them. I don’t know everything, but I’ll help with what I know, and say openly if I don’t know.

 

NB.  With regards to RH Chelsea pension payments these could later be collected nearer to home (certainly after WW1) and it was no longer necessary to visit Chelsea annually to collect the money.  The pension lists were still maintained at Chelsea, but delivered via a network of regional administrative hubs.

No wonder you know so much, Frogsmile! And what a huge amount of change you have seen in terms of the administrative element. Thank you so much for using your knowledge, and time, to help others like me. I really do appreciate all the information you have given me - including that bit about the Chelsea pension! 🙏🏻

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On 30/05/2021 at 07:27, Madmeg said:

I'm going to suggest that Francis George has had a name change somewhere along the line.

His WW1 medal record is very clear but if he was already in the army by 1901 you would surely hope to find a record of him pre WW1- those with more military knowledge than me can help out here.... and there appears to be absolutely nothing!

I've checked all the Francis Georges born in Devon for quite a few years either side of 1876 and there isn't even anything which looks like Woodhouse- there are a couple of Woodhouse families but no Thomas's.  There are a few children to Robert and wife (oops forgotten her name) Robert was a sailor.

Do you have more details on Thomas being in Nova Scotia?

I note that there is one Francis George Woodhouse in NZ in later years and one in Fiji- the name combination seems surprisingly uncommon so there is a chance that these are relatives of some kind.

There are very few Chelsea Pension records for Woodhouse none for a Thomas.- although there IS an earlier one for a Francis in the Household Cavalry- bonus for me was that my husband's ancestor Edwin Window was on the same batch of records :-D.

I'll keep looking, any more details however small you can let us all have would be really useful Emma :-)

Thank you, Madmeg. It is very frustrating! I shall look into the records you have mentioned re. NZ and Fiji. I’m not sure if they would be him - I’m pretty confident that he ended up in Exeter. I think he died there in 1947. I can’t think of anything else I know at this point - I think I’m going to take a punt on the death registration record I have found that I think is for him and order a copy of the death certificate. That might - or might not! - give us a missing piece of the puzzle.

@FROGSMILE

 

Here is the photo I mentioned that we think is Francis...

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Hi Emma, Fiji was born 1935 I think - but I was wondering if there was a family connection. The NZ chap is an electoral roll for 1957 and an immigration record (not sure of the date). But the immigration records also show visitors - eg on holiday or short visit so it could be the Fiji chap as well. 

The combination of names is so rare that there is a chance it is related (but not your man). of course there is that one other francis George Woodhouse as well so it could be ralted to his family.

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22 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Hi Emma, Fiji was born 1935 I think - but I was wondering if there was a family connection. The NZ chap is an electoral roll for 1957 and an immigration record (not sure of the date). But the immigration records also show visitors - eg on holiday or short visit so it could be the Fiji chap as well. 

The combination of names is so rare that there is a chance it is related (but not your man). of course there is that one other francis George Woodhouse as well so it could be ralted to his family.

Thanks for the clarification, Madmeg 🙏🏻😊

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On 30/05/2021 at 07:46, EmmaDean said:

Thank you, Madmeg. It is very frustrating! I shall look into the records you have mentioned re. NZ and Fiji. I’m not sure if they would be him - I’m pretty confident that he ended up in Exeter. I think he died there in 1947. I can’t think of anything else I know at this point - I think I’m going to take a punt on the death registration record I have found that I think is for him and order a copy of the death certificate. That might - or might not! - give us a missing piece of the puzzle.

@FROGSMILE

 

Here is the photo I mentioned that we think is Francis...

 

 

That is a Royal Artillery officer with a vertical wound stripe on his left lower sleeve (one awarded for each occasion wounded, not number of wounds).  

 

The bronze cap badge and gilt collar badges, together with Sam Browne leather cross belt, are all features of an officer’s uniform.
 

He is dressed for a hot climate in the appropriate khaki drill (KD) cotton uniform worn in Egypt.  He appears to be sat on a piece of ancient Egyptian ruins and is wearing spurs so he has recently been on horseback (probably to ride to where he is).

 

NB.  See images of insignia and similar jacket, etc. below.

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1D583033-DD16-4F94-9876-1EC4E3AA98AD.jpeg.11f9a0007d96d014b2b58a6ceaf5e995.jpeg

 

A67BEE50-7D1A-4852-9E4D-AC46FBF00DF1.jpeg.0c7f5d199f0438bd2f8a7c3fc86f236b.jpeg

 

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85B1D20F-FBD3-4E4F-9BBF-432FBBADA457.jpeg.914114f49d1ea36d09de641a4fae62b4.jpeg

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He appears to have originally signed up to the RGA as Frank Atkinson born in Yorkshire... heading to the library so hope to find out some more....

Ah bother- Frank Atkinson turns out to have been number 33549 and to have been misfiled as 33649 our boy's number- curses curses. frank atkinson died in 1920 . There appears to be no other records of 33649- nb FMP has it as 3364 off the medal card, medal roll gives 33649. The actual card is very difficult to read after the first four numbers but I'm assuming the medal roll is correct.

Edited by Madmeg
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Something odd is striking me re his number- old pros can you help? 

 

Francis George's number according to the medal rolls (all three of them) shows as 33649 as above. He must have joined prior to the 1901 census- I'm suspecting several years before given his age. BUT the man whose record has mistakenly been filed under that number- Frank Atkinson has a number of 33549- and he joined up in 1910 (at the Citadel Plymouth). I was hoping to work out when FG W joined up from his number but it appears to be out of sequence- Frank Atkinsons you would expect to be a much higher number ?

In the past I have managed to find a site with lists of approximate dates of joining for the different regiments but I can't find it now- Paul Nixon's Army service numbers site seems to only deal with Highland joiners, there is a post on this forum from about 1914 regarding RGA service numbers but 336xxx doesn't show up- 330 is allocated to the Plymouth depot but no years?

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8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

That is a Royal Artillery officer with a vertical wound stripe on his left lower sleeve (one awarded for each occasion wounded, not number of wounds).  

 

The bronze cap badge and gilt collar badges, together with Sam Browne leather cross belt, are all features of an officer’s uniform.
 

He is dressed for a hot climate in the appropriate khaki drill (KD) cotton uniform worn in Egypt.  He appears to be sat on a piece of ancient Egyptian ruins and is wearing spurs so he has recently been on horseback (probably to ride to where he is).

 

NB.  See images of insignia and similar jacket, etc. below.

639BEE2E-B58B-40BA-BC1F-4F79DB9FC32C.jpeg

1D583033-DD16-4F94-9876-1EC4E3AA98AD.jpeg

A67BEE50-7D1A-4852-9E4D-AC46FBF00DF1.jpeg

0DC43A61-E458-4D4E-843D-B7741F51BFD1.jpeg

85B1D20F-FBD3-4E4F-9BBF-432FBBADA457.jpeg

I’m sounding like a broken record, but thank you so much!! In all likelihood, then, this is indeed a photo of Francis. Wow. Really interesting what you have said about the wounded stripe as someone posted earlier in the thread about him having been wounded - I would love to know where they found that information but they haven’t come back again just yet.

 

@Madmeg Thanks so much for the digging you are doing - interesting questions arising...hope the pros can help!

Edited by EmmaDean
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Yes, certainly all the circumstantial evidence points toward it being Francis.  The dress, insignia, apparent age, wound stripe and location all fit with his profile that you have provided.

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Hi Emma,

 

18 hours ago, EmmaDean said:

Thank you so much for this information. How on earth did you find this?! Incredible. Would it be worth including the service file number when I apply to the MOD for Francis’ file do you think?

 

If you did take the £30 gamble that it is your Francis (does the DoB tally with what you know?), there is a helpdesk number here. I understand that given that he was born well over 100 years ago, they don't need a copy death certificate with any application.

 

Regards

Chris

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Didn’t someone say that his officer’s file still exists at the MOD because he was still in service after 1920 (retiring in 1921)?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Didn’t someone say that his officer’s file still exists at the MOD because he was still in service after 1920 (retiring in 1921)?

would that include his earlier file? It doesn't seem to be where it should be in the other records- see above posts on 33649.

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Appear as follows:

F G Woodhouse

Resided Town: Colaba, India

Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the Home Office on the 2nd July 1916.

Battery Sergeant Major

33649

Royal Garrison Artillery

Colaba I believe is in Mumbai (Bombay). So seems he was living in India. 

Edited by Mark1959
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3 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

would that include his earlier file? It doesn't seem to be where it should be in the other records- see above posts on 33649.

I’m not sure Meg.  I think I’ve read in past threads that the files were merged.  It seems the logical thing to do, but then we can never rely on that.  Some of the forum members who’ve dug out such records in the past will know the answer.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hopefully so Frogsmile as the file supposed to be his is a wash out :-(

 

I'm coming round more and more to the view that he wasn't born in Plymouth under that name.....

 

Emma have you had a DNA test done? I recently had success in unentangling a CEF chap who signed up as James Bourne Woodley- when it seems 997.5%) certain (gotta give myself some doubt there :-) ) that his name was something else entirely. I was only able to work this out from my DNA connection and working out which side of my family he must have come from.  

If you have had a DNA done then it might get you a bit further with this elusive gentleman!

There are a couple of "Woodhouse" with no first name on FMP shown as in India- might be worth an investigate by someone who has access?

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On 30/05/2021 at 11:35, clk said:

Hi Emma,

 

 

If you did take the £30 gamble that it is your Francis (does the DoB tally with what you know?), there is a helpdesk number here. I understand that given that he was born well over 100 years ago, they don't need a copy death certificate with any application.

 

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for coming back to me. Something quite funny is that I had not even noticed that there were dates of birth included on the typed record 🙄😂

 

Okay, so, this is interesting. The date of birth is stated as being the 21st April 1875. On the England and Wales 1939 register, the date of birth is stated as being 21st April 1877. This must be the same person??! Would there be a reason for ‘massaging the truth’ in terms of his date of birth? Or could it just be a simple error? The burial record I have states that he died in 1947 and he was 72. That would correlate with him having been born in 1875 🤷🏼‍♀️🤔

On 30/05/2021 at 12:14, Mark1959 said:

Appear as follows:

F G Woodhouse

Resided Town: Colaba, India

Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the Home Office on the 2nd July 1916.

Battery Sergeant Major

33649

Royal Garrison Artillery

Colaba I believe is in Mumbai (Bombay). So seems he was living in India. 

Thank you Mark! Is there any way that I could find that record myself? And how did you do that?! 🤣

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On 30/05/2021 at 12:20, Madmeg said:

Hopefully so Frogsmile as the file supposed to be his is a wash out :-(

 

I'm coming round more and more to the view that he wasn't born in Plymouth under that name.....

 

Emma have you had a DNA test done? I recently had success in unentangling a CEF chap who signed up as James Bourne Woodley- when it seems 997.5%) certain (gotta give myself some doubt there :-) ) that his name was something else entirely. I was only able to work this out from my DNA connection and working out which side of my family he must have come from.  

If you have had a DNA done then it might get you a bit further with this elusive gentleman!

There are a couple of "Woodhouse" with no first name on FMP shown as in India- might be worth an investigate by someone who has access?

Thanks Madmeg. Sorry for appearing a bit clueless, but how would a DNA test help? I know what side of the family Francis was on - it was my mother’s side?

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Could any of the pros shed some light on how I could find out more about Thomas? Again, sorry for being clueless, but is there a particular regiment that someone has to serve in to become a Chelsea pensioner? Sorry, that’s probably a really stupid question! 🙈

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On 29/05/2021 at 06:34, helpjpl said:

Found 2 entries in the London Gazette for an F.G. Woodhouse (RGA) - in 1920 and 1940.

 

a)  Page 1062 - The undermentioned Lts. are placed on the h.p. list. 17th Oct. 1920:-

     Page 1063 - F.G. Woodhouse

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32088/supplement/1

 

b)  The undermentioned  2nd Lts. relinquish their rank on enlistment into the ranks of the Army:-

     F.G. Woodhouse (late R.G.A). 1st Jan 1940.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34837/supplement/2452/data.pdf

 

JP

@FROGSMILE Hi Frogsmile, please could you explain what these announcements mean? 🙏🏻

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he undermentioned Lts. are placed on the h.p. list. 

 

\think it means placed on half pay list. Sure Frogsmile can explain more fully

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