Bertram Crisp - Trying to identify my grandfather's regiment from his cap badge

[Nic Fergusson]

We have no knowledge from our ancestors about his service but found this photo which we believe is our grandfather, Bertram Crisp. Can anyone please identify his regiment from the cap badge so we can explore his service further 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum Nic. Bertram's cap badge is that of the Artists Rifles.

Michelle 

[CorporalPunishment]

28th Battalion, the London Regiment (Artists Rifles).

[Nic Fergusson]

Thanks Michelle and Corporal Punishment.

 

Corporal Punishment - could you tell the actual battalion from the badge or from his name?

[Michelle Young]

He enlisted December1915 and was discharged July 1916 due to sickness. Regimental  number was 7852.. 

The Artists Rifles were the 28th (County of London) Battalion London Regiment. They were territorial soldiers, who pre war had to pay a subscription and were known as "Saturday Night Soldiers"

[Nic Fergusson]

Thank you both so much for the info. Do you know what sickness he suffered from? Was the regiment involved in the Battle of the Somme and was it due to that?

 

[Michelle Young]

Looking at his medal index card, there were no medals awarded, so no overseas service.

Para 392 111 C 

 

explained here

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/records-of-the-silver-war-badge/

[Michelle Young]

Image courtesy of Ancestry 

 

[Nic Fergusson]

Thanks for all your help Michelle

[FROGSMILE]

Good spot Michelle, he’s definitely wearing an Artist’s Rifles cap badge in the photo.

 

[travers61]

The Artist's Rifles also formed an Officers Training Corps from 1915, with a third of the 15,000 men who passed through the battalion becoming officers, including the War Poet Wilfred Owen.

 

The battalion did not go to the Western Front until 1917.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_Rifles

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, travers61 said:

The Artist's Rifles also formed an Officers Training Corps from 1915, with a third of the 15,000 men who passed through the battalion becoming officers, including the War Poet Wilfred Owen.

 

The battalion did not go to the Western Front until 1917.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_Rifles

Indeed.  But that clearly doesn’t apply to Bertram Crisp if you examine his profile.

[mancpal]

It's a shame somebody appears to have used his image as a drinks mat. There are members on here who have been known to retouch old photo's commonly with excellent results. I hope one of the said members spots this and may be able to assist with, if nothing else, a clearer image of your forebear, I'm sorry I can't assist further.

 

Simon

[Nic Fergusson]

Does anyone have any idea as to what the comment against "action taken" might have meant on the discharge form Michelle kindly posted? Looks like "List I P 3M"

[Sepoy]

For your interest, he is listed in the Artist's Rifles Roll of Honour which can be downloaded (free of charge) at Archive.org here
https://ia802607.us.archive.org/13/items/regimentalrollof00highiala/regimentalrollof00highiala.pdf

 

It is simply his name with no details of Overseas Service.

Hope this helps

Sepoy

[SteveE]

37 minutes ago, Nic Fergusson said:

Does anyone have any idea as to what the comment against "action taken" might have meant on the discharge form Michelle kindly posted? Looks like "List I P 3M"

It’s “List TP 301” and is the reference to his entry in the Silver War Badge Roll. TP was the code used by the Territorial Force Record Office in London and 301 the page number of that particular entry.  The roll containing Bertram’s entry is available at the National Archives under reference WO 329/3160 and also online on Ancestry whilst other transcriptions are available on other genealogical sites.

 

In addition to the detail on the index card Michelle posted above the SWB Roll also adds that Bertram was awarded Silver War Badge no. 70420 and that he had no overseas service.

 

Steve

[George Rayner]

Is this him?

Courtesy of Find My Past

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

which is clearly legible.

He also appears in Ancestry but the images are extremely poor being out of focus.

 

In case it helps to answer the why discharged question from earlier

also FMP-with thanks and acknowledgement

 

 

George

 

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Tabes Dorsalis

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabes_dorsalis

[trooper23]

I see the term RAMCT written after the Examining physician and in the stamp at the bottom of his discharge form. 

Obviously RAMC would be expected but could you please enlighten me as to the T component?

Thanks

 

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, trooper23 said:

I see the term RAMCT written after the Examining physician and in the stamp at the bottom of his discharge form. 

Obviously RAMC would be expected but could you please enlighten me as to the T component?

Thanks

 

Territorial - as in the small T worn beneath the collar badges of that ilk. 

[Tonyb]

Cap badge politely named Mars and Minerva. There are, of course, other names!

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Tonyb said:

Cap badge politely named Mars and Minerva. There are, of course, other names!

“Mars he was the God of war and didn’t stop at trifles, Minerva was a bloody wh**e, so hence the Artist’s Rifles.”

Edited 27 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Tonyb]

Technically: Mars he was the god of war and didn’t stick at trifles,

Minerva said she didn’t mind and so the Artists Rifles

 

but your version is probably also correct.

Tony

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Tonyb said:

Technically: Mars he was the god of war and didn’t stick at trifles,

Minerva said she didn’t mind and so the Artists Rifles

 

but your version is probably also correct.

Tony

Yes I’ve seen that version before too, I think it was the original and for polite society.

Edited 28 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[trooper23]

On 27/05/2021 at 13:23, FROGSMILE said:

Territorial - as in the small T worn beneath the collar badges of that ilk. 

Oh course!

Obvious when pointed out - Thank you!