Seeking help

[Joo1365]

I’m trying to find out more information about my grandfather who served in the Wiltshire Regiment. His name was Arthur John Bishop (always known as Jack) born 1896 Clevedon, Somerset. I believe he served in the Middle East (& possibly fought & was wounded at Gallipoli) & that he stayed out in the Middle East  after demob. From what I’ve been able to read online about the Wiltshire regiment it seems this scenario is possible? I’ve found an incoming passenger list for September 1920 listing an Arthur Bishop, occupation “police” & last place of residence Mesopotamia - I wonder if this is him & he perhaps transferred to British police in Mesopotamia after ending the war there. But I cannot find any trace whatsoever of his war records. Is it possible that all of his records, of every type, could have been destroyed in the WW2 bombing?Any help on any of the above, or any advice on where else to look for further info would be much appreciated.

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Joo1365 said:

I’m trying to find out more information about my grandfather who served in the Wiltshire Regiment. His name was Arthur John Bishop (always known as Jack) born 1896 Clevedon, Somerset. I believe he served in the Middle East (& possibly fought & was wounded at Gallipoli) & that he stayed out in the Middle East  after demob. From what I’ve been able to read online about the Wiltshire regiment it seems this scenario is possible? I’ve found an incoming passenger list for September 1920 listing an Arthur Bishop, occupation “police” & last place of residence Mesopotamia - I wonder if this is him & he perhaps transferred to British police in Mesopotamia after ending the war there. But I cannot find any trace whatsoever of his war records. Is it possible that all of his records, of every type, could have been destroyed in the WW2 bombing?Any help on any of the above, or any advice on where else to look for further info would be much appreciated.

Do you have his medals or anything with a service number ?

Craig

[jay dubaya]

The only Arthur Bishop of the Wiltshire Rgt I can find on the Medal Index Cards (MICs) and served in Mesopotamia is Pte 9952 Arthur Bishop, embarked on 30th June 1915 for  2 (b) Balkans - which includes Mesopotamia. Arthur was awarded a 15 Star, BWM and Victory medals, his entry in the medal rolls show he served all his time with the 5th Bn.

[ss002d6252]

Just now, jay dubaya said:

The only Arthur Bishop of the Wiltshire Rgt I can find on the Medal Index Cards (MICs) and served in Mesopotamia is Pte 9952 Arthur Bishop, embarked on 30th June 1915 for  2 (b) Balkans - which includes Mesopotamia. Arthur was awarded a 15 Star, BWM and Victory medals, his entry in the medal rolls show he served all his time with the 5th Bn.

I've just been looking and he was the most obvious one I could see as well.

Craig

[clk]

Hi Joo1365,

 

The OCR which Findmypast have used seems to have made a bit of a hash of this transcription...

 

If you drill down in to the actual image (unfortunately my sub level doesn't allow me to) hopefully there will be a place name in brackets after the "Bishop 9952 A" bit, which may help to rule him in/out.

 

Regards

Chris

[DavidOwen]

58 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Joo1365,

 

The OCR which Findmypast have used seems to have made a bit of a hash of this transcription...

If you drill down in to the actual image (unfortunately my sub level doesn't allow me to) hopefully there will be a place name in brackets after the "Bishop 9952 A" bit, which may help to rule him in/out.

 

Regards

Chris

It says Clevedon.

[jay dubaya]

Good find Chris and thanks to David for the confirmation. Looks like he might be the right man.

[Joo1365]

Thank you everyone I’ve spoken to my brother & 9952 is definitely him 😊 So do the medal index cards definitely confirm that he served all his time with the 5th battalion? (Sorry to ask such an ignorant question!) And would I be right in thinking that he did then serve at Gallipoli before ending up in Mesopotamia? I don’t suppose anyone can suggest any way of tracking his employment after demob? I’m becoming more & more convinced that it’s him coming back as “police” in 1920 🤔

[jay dubaya]

The 5th Bn is the only one noted (contained in the BWM and Victory ledger) and without a service record or any further evidence of other units... or not doesn’t exactly make it definitely. I can’t access the link posted by Chris so can’t  comment on what it may be nor any further detail. Can’t help with the post demob Arthur but here are the battalion details from the mother site which show their wartime movements - 

 

5th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Devizes in August 1914 as part of K1 and attached as Army Troops to 13th (Western) Division. Moved to Tidworth and on in October 1914 to Chisledon.
December 1914 : moved to billets in Cirencester and joined 40th Brigade in same Division. Moved on to Woking in February 1915 and then Bisley in May.
1 July 1915 : sailed from Avonmouth for Gallipoli. Landed at Cape Helles 17 July but moved to Anzac cove area 4 August 1915. Suffered heavy casualties in Turkish attack 10 August. Later moved to Suvla Bay area.
January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.
February 1916 : moved to Mesopotamia where it then remained.

[Joo1365]

7 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

The 5th Bn is the only one noted (contained in the BWM and Victory ledger) and without a service record or any further evidence of other units... or not doesn’t exactly make it definitely. I can’t access the link posted by Chris so can’t  comment on what it may be nor any further detail. Can’t help with the post demob Arthur but here are the battalion details from the mother site which show their wartime movements - 

 

5th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Devizes in August 1914 as part of K1 and attached as Army Troops to 13th (Western) Division. Moved to Tidworth and on in October 1914 to Chisledon.
December 1914 : moved to billets in Cirencester and joined 40th Brigade in same Division. Moved on to Woking in February 1915 and then Bisley in May.
1 July 1915 : sailed from Avonmouth for Gallipoli. Landed at Cape Helles 17 July but moved to Anzac cove area 4 August 1915. Suffered heavy casualties in Turkish attack 10 August. Later moved to Suvla Bay area.
January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.
February 1916 : moved to Mesopotamia where it then remained.

Thank you 

[clk]

Hi Joo1365,

 

I too don't think that I can help you with his post war employment.

 

1 hour ago, Joo1365 said:

I’ve spoken to my brother & 9952 is definitely him

 

I think that you're right that his WW1 papers are lost, but it might be possible to draw together some reasonable inferences for you. To avoid going over 'old' ground, what do you/your brother already know?

 

Regards

Chris

[Joo1365]

21 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Joo1365,

 

I too don't think that I can help you with his post war employment.

 

 

I think that you're right that his WW1 papers are lost, but it might be possible to draw together some reasonable inferences for you. To avoid going over 'old' ground, what do you/your brother already know?

 

Regards

Chris

Only 9952 Wiltshire regiment for certain. Family lore had it that he upped his age to enlist (birth date Oct 1896 so if 5th battalion formed in August this would tie in?) & that he was at Gallipoli, possibly wounded there, & served out his time in the Middle East....any reasonable inferences would be gratefully received 😊

[Joo1365]

On 19/05/2021 at 18:57, jay dubaya said:

The only Arthur Bishop of the Wiltshire Rgt I can find on the Medal Index Cards (MICs) and served in Mesopotamia is Pte 9952 Arthur Bishop, embarked on 30th June 1915 for  2 (b) Balkans - which includes Mesopotamia. Arthur was awarded a 15 Star, BWM and Victory medals, his entry in the medal rolls show he served all his time with the 5th Bn.

Thanks to everyone's help yesterday & now knowing that he's 9952 I've managed to find & download this from The National Archives site (ref WO 372/2/157586).....so the record in the top left corner is him & the other 5 are different Arthur Bishops, is that correct? And is there something on here that I'm missing which confirms 5th battalion? Again, sorry to ask such probably obvious questions but all of your expertise & knowledge is much appreciated! 

229968541_medalcard.pdf

 

[jay dubaya]

You’ve downloaded Arthur’s MIC along with five others which have no relevance to your Arthur. This document confirms his medal entitlement followed by the relevant page number in the relevant medal roll ledgers, it also confirms his date of embarkation and the theatre he first served in. The date of entry does somewhat suggest 5th Bn but as a stated previously the BWM and Victory medal roll ledger does state 5th Bn. For some unknown reason I cannot post an image of this - it appears as just a blank black rectangle when I try from my iPhone, I’ll try later from the laptop. Sadly these ledges are only available digitised from ancestry.co.uk but are available to view in person at the National Archives.

No need to apologise for asking questions... it’s how we find answers 

Edited 20 May , 2021 by jay dubaya
Additional information

[Joo1365]

2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

You’ve downloaded Arthur’s MIC along with five others which have no relevance to your Arthur. This document confirms his medal entitlement followed by the relevant page number in the relevant medal roll ledgers, it also confirms his date of embarkation and the theatre he first served in. The date of entry does somewhat suggest 5th Bn but as a stated previously the BWM and Victory medal roll ledger does state 5th Bn. For some unknown reason I cannot post an image of this - it appears as just a blank black rectangle when I try from my iPhone, I’ll try later from the laptop. Sadly these ledges are only available digitised from ancestry.co.uk but are available to view in person at the National Archives.

Thank you, I do have access to ancestry.co.uk but haven’t been able to get anything to come up I must be searching wrongly somehow?

[jay dubaya]

2 minutes ago, Joo1365 said:

Thank you, I do have access to ancestry.co.uk but haven’t been able to get anything to come up I must be searching wrongly somehow?

Well that makes life easier... 

15 Star roll

BWM & Victory roll

[Joo1365]

7 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Well that makes life easier... 

15 Star roll

BWM & Victory roll

Brilliant, thank you SO much for that, you've no idea how many times I've tried to find anything military related for him on ancestry, and I've no idea why I've never been able to find it before! Thank you, made my day!

[jay dubaya]

It’s a pleasure, always glad to help where I can.

[clk]

Hi Joo1365.

 

The Medal Index Card is also available on Ancestry where you can see it in colour.

 

 

The numbers in the red box are admin references to the medal rolls. These are also available on Ancestry - link

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(...I see that Jay has posted direct links, but I'll carry on writing anyway...)

 

The first roll intimates that Arthur only served overseas with the 5th Battalion. If he had served with another unit as well most commonly (but not always) the roll would also show that.

 

On 20/05/2021 at 06:53, Joo1365 said:

Family lore had it that he upped his age to enlist (birth date Oct 1896 so if 5th battalion formed in August this would tie in?)

 

It would seem that Arthur probably joined up at the end of August/start of September 1914. For example, there are surviving service papers for a couple of near-ish number 5th Bn men, who bracket his service number.

 

9920 Mead - enlisted 29.8.1914

9952

9994 Giles - enlisted 1.9.1914

 

On the second roll it gives a date of disembarkation of 30.6.1915. This date should be when a man first arrived in a theatre of war. However, it's not uncommon to see in the rolls a date for when a man set off for overseas service, and I think that is the case here as the Bn war diary (Ancestry link) records that it when the main body of men left Cowshot and boarded the SS Franconia at Avonmouth, before setting sail on 1.7.1915.

 

Unfortunately, for the duration of their overseas service in active theatres the Battalion war diary isn't available online in one place. Ancestry (see previous link) have the Gallipoli diary, where it can be downloaded - albeit a page at a time. As free downloads (after free registration) the National Archives has diaries covering February 1916 to February 1919 - link.

 

The list of names that appeared in the Western Daily Press of 11th May 1916 was probably taken from a War Office Casualty List - both of which would have been published several weeks after the date on which the men were actually wounded. If you look for surviving service papers for men on the list you may find a commonality of wounding dates (within a day or so), make an inference about Arthur, then cross reference back to the war diary. For example, from the snippet I could see, papers for 12374 Bryant (also a 5th Bn man) show:

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

The war diary for 9th April 1916 reads as:

 

Sannaiyat, Mesopotamia

Advanced 4.20a.m. Direction lost on left owing to sniping and small marsh and Turkish starlights coming from disputed direction. Lost our bearings after machine gunfire. Confusion in darkness. Troops dug in about 650yds from enemy. All day and night lines strengthened by men coming in from front. Many wounded crawled in and many were collected. 18077 Pte. J.H. Nelson and 9842 Pte. W.G. Price displayed conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in collecting wounded and evacuating them. They have been recommended for the DCM. Capt Robertson collected Battn. together as far as possible. Casualties. Killed:- Lt. Col R.C.B Throckmorton, 2/Lt J.E. Binns, Wounded 2/Lt. V.M.W.W. Vreidenbury, 2/Lt. C.C. Webb. Missing:- Capt. J.W. Greany DSO, Capt L.W. Murphy, 2/Lt. D.E. Cruikshank afterwards reported wounded, 2/Lt. Gilborne, 2/Lt. H.S. Diggers. Other ranks:- Killed 21 Wounded 161 Missing 37

 

Regards

Chris

[Joo1365]

Hi Chris,

Wow so much information & so many inferences I had completely missed, thank you so much for your detailed reply. 
So the Western Daily Press Article of 16th May 1916 containing Arthur’s name was a list of wounded? I hadn’t realised as I’m unable to see it, perhaps I need to sign up for find my past to be able to? Unless anyone else is able to enlighten me?Meanwhile I think I have now downloaded the war diaries, thank you for those links,

 

Julie

[clk]

Hi Julie.

 

On 21/05/2021 at 03:51, Joo1365 said:

So the Western Daily Press Article of 16th May 1916 containing Arthur’s name was a list of wounded?

 

I believe so, but I can't drill down into it so I can't be 100% sure. I think that it might contain the names of men from the 5th Bn that were wounded on (or very close to) 9.4.1916. Bear with me on this...

 

From the snippet 9245 Baker and 9079 Brunsdon have records in Soldiers Died in the Great War which say that they died of wounds on 10.5.1916. That date is far too close to the newspaper date, so that would seem to suggest that either a) they were wounded and died some weeks after those wounds, or b) they were slightly wounded and recovered, only to be wounded again, and subsequently died.

 

Cheating the search on FMP a bit you also get...

 

The SDGW records show that 10056 Chivers died of wounds on 9.4.1916.

 

Baker, Brunsdon and Chivers are all noted in SDGW as being 5th Bn men.

 

I've not have cause to use them, but I understand that sites like The Genealogist (link) have the widest range of published casualty lists. They seem to offer a short 'free trial', and I wonder if you might be able to establish whether Arthur was wounded in Gallipoli (as you thought) too.

 

I also wondered if the Regimental museum (the 'Wardrobe' - link) might hold any further relevant records. Albeit a fair few years ago they were very helpful to me when I just pitched up one day.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[Joo1365]

Chris,

 

Thanks that’s really helpful & for the links, I’m quite excited that there is a regiment museum!

Julie 
 

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, Joo1365 said:

Chris,

 

Thanks that’s really helpful & for the links, I’m quite excited that there is a regiment museum!

Julie 
 

 

They also have a history of the Battalion

https://thewardrobe.org.uk/products/history-5th-service-battalion-wiltshire-regiment-1914-1919-paula-perry

 

The men on the wounded list, if seriously wounded were evacuated to the Base Hospitals at Alexandria, and most were received and recorded in the Hospital Register of the 19 General Hospital Alexandria Egypt. The list, which is a local list, or men from South West Regiments has the preamble 'on various dates'.  The 5th Battalion Wiltshire Regiment was part of the 13th (Western) Division.  The extract from the diary posted by Chris reflects the attempts by the Division to relieve the besieged garrison at Kut which fell on the 29th April.  On the 6th April in one last desperate attempt to break through the Division attacked the Turks at Falahiyeh and Hannah, positions which they had held since January.

There were so many casualties the Division, and in fact the whole Allied armies in Mesopatamia did not become an effective attacking force until the end of the year.

 

I would suggest your grandfather was wounded in the futile attempts to relieve the garrison at Kut which began shortly after the Division landed at Basrah on the 1st March 1916 and culminated in the losses the following month.

[Joo1365]

17 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

I would suggest your grandfather was wounded in the futile attempts to relieve the garrison at Kut which began shortly after the Division landed at Basrah on the 1st March 1916 and culminated in the losses the following month.

Thank you kenf48