Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Military Cross Opinion, British Medal


Recommended Posts

medalguy99

Hi,

 

I am new to this site and I am wondering if can I get opinions on this military cross. I am wondering is it an original medal, could it be one of the faked ones.

 

Any help appreciated

 

Thanks Frank

Capture mc1.PNG

Capture mc2.PNG

Capture mc3.PNG

Capture mc4.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frank, MC's are a minefield.

The copies (fakes) that are being produced these days some are extremely well made, very difficult at times to tell a genuine cross from a copy.

 

It is not possible to determine if good or bad from the photos you have provided.

You really need to provide sharp clear closeup photos of the obverse, the reverse, the ribbon suspension at thé ring(this one very important)both obv & rev views. & close up photos of the naming on the reverse of the cross.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rayessex

Hello Medalguy.

 

Can't tell you 100% if its a fake as I can't see small details or take measurements from the picture. However I can see two points that make me wonder. 

 

1.  The pin clasp is not the original, But that could have been changed at a later date, and does not mean the medal is not original.

 

2.  MC's are silver but yours seems to have a brass colour coming through on the back. This could also be a trick of the camera or lighting.

 

Hope I'm wrong, and its original.

 

Ray.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
medalguy99

Thanks for the information, I will upload better photos when I get a chance. I thought the pin clasp doesn't look original to the medal.

 

The brass color could be from the flash from the camera. 

 

thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anybody checked whether a Lt Faulkner of the Irish Guards was awarded a M.C. ?  

It may be my eyes but the reverse of the medal looks to be slightly concave though leaving a slight rim around the perimeter. Does this observation fit with genuine M.C.s or even known forgeries?

Am I correct in thinking that the engraving on a M.C. was privately commissioned post award, as such many genuine ones exist that are plain backed as issued ? I may of course have made this up, only 1 member of my family was ever commissioned and doubtless as far away from an M.C. award as I am sitting typing this.

 

Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites

The ribbon pin clasp is irrevelent, it could have been replaced at any time.

Its the cross thats important.

 

The 'brass' appearance could be as a result of age toning as well.

 

Better sharp in focus photos will really help.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the key is going to be that suspension, its usually what fakers get incorrect.

 

MC's were normally privately named but as I am not a Gallantry collector I am not 100% on that.

 

Checking to see the Lieut is entitled is a good first step.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rayessex

That's exactly what I said about the pin clasp. Yes, I believe they were issued unnamed, and were done privately. A good quality photo of suspension would help no end.

 

I've noticed your 'In memory' footer lots of Williamson's there. You're going to tell me you're Howard Williamson author of 'The Great War Medal Collectors Companion' Next! In which case I'll just shut up now! 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
34 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Has anybody checked whether a Lt Faulkner of the Irish Guards was awarded a M.C. ?

Well, there are only 5 MICs listed  on Ancestry to Faulkners with service in the Irish guards.

But one of them is an  officer, a one time Lieutenant in the Irish Guards, named Walter Douglas Faulkner who won an M.C....

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000526-01757?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=41f5e2aa158e2ae64d7c70e8ed77b4fd&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uDB68&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1834360

Link to post
Share on other sites

No Ray, I am not Howard!  But we corresponded years ago when he was collecting Williamson medals.  I was after Canadian Williamsons then also.

I dont have his excellent books but I understand they are excellent.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rayessex

I do have his books VOLS I, II, III. Found them to be a very valuable asset. As an aside he lives just around the corner from me in Harwich. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ivor Anderson

Hi Frank, Welcome to the GWF.

Peter Warrington's MC register volume lists no MC awarded to a Lt. W. E. Faulkner of the Irish Guards. There is only one W Faulkner in the whole book: 

He only lists an Acting Captain Walter Douglas Faulkner of 2nd Bn. Irish Guards - New Years honours award 1 Jan 1919, so no citation.

He seems to have died in action in 1940: http://www.rememberthefallen.co.uk/casualty/faulkner-walter-douglas/

 

The edge definition of the MC in your photos also looks very rounded to me - photo of genuine MC reverse for comparison:

s-l1600-5 copy.jpg

Edited by Ivor Anderson
Link to post
Share on other sites
Ivor Anderson

There are lots of measurement details in this thread (but I suspect it is a secondary issue): 

 

Edited by Ivor Anderson
Link to post
Share on other sites

Would anybody be able to post pictures of the reverse side of other genuine MCs and also the reverse of dubious/known fakes? My initial thoughts posted above about the reverse were that it appears to be cast due to the rim effect though perhaps (with my limited knowledge) they were all cast and this one missed the final milling process to flatten the rear surface . I doubt it as I understand medals were pressed rather than moulded. Could the concave appearance be the result of a poor pressing? Does the typeface of the engraving look contemporary to other examples?

I'm not trying to shatter dreams and happily accept I know nothing about medals, the above is just my mind working overtime whilst waiting for my tea to cook.

 

Simon

 

An afterthought, were the medals pressed at different factories hence a variation in the end result ?

 

Edited by mancpal
Link to post
Share on other sites

MC was struck, not cast, Simon.  If its cast then its a fake.

The MC origially posted by Frank appears not to have been cast, but as myself & others have mentioned, much better, in focus close up photos ate required to be certain.

Link to post
Share on other sites

RCNVR,

I too have the same images available to form an opinion. please re-read my above posts. You call it struck (likely correct), I called it pressed (same thing with less knowledge of correct terminology) and even suggested casting unlikely.

 As mentioned above, could anybody explain why the reverse of the medal in question appears to have a rim to its rear whereas others appear to be flat regardless of being struck/pressed/stamped/milled (but not cast) etc. I'm not suggesting there is anything right or wrong about this medal, purely seeking answers, Thanks

 

Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites
tullybrone

In light of his 1940 death in Norway as Commanding Officer 1st IG I wonder if an enquiry with RHQ IG may be appropriate as it is often the case that senior officer medals are bequeathed to the Regiment. If that is the case then it may support the proposition that this MC is a fake.

 

Steve

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apart from having Grandfather's MC I know very little. Posts have been quite illuminating on aspects of faked MCs. 

 

Poor job to fake an MC and get an initial wrong? Also a poor job if the engraver mis-read an initial but not much the recipient can do about it.

 

The concave suggestions for this MC could be partly down to the photo quality and that the patina is more pronounced at the ends of the crossed while the centre is shinier, giving the impression it's concave?

 

For all we know Faulkener could have lost his, sourced an un-named one and had it engraved. Or, a decendant might have done the same after 1940. Or the engraving wasn't done on the original until after 1940.

 

Is the weight significant? Would fakes have the same detail in the crowns under a loupe?

 

Could photo mine if it's of use?

TEW

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...