medalguy99 Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 Hi, I am new to this site and I am wondering if can I get opinions on this military cross. I am wondering is it an original medal, could it be one of the faked ones. Any help appreciated Thanks Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 Frank, MC's are a minefield. The copies (fakes) that are being produced these days some are extremely well made, very difficult at times to tell a genuine cross from a copy. It is not possible to determine if good or bad from the photos you have provided. You really need to provide sharp clear closeup photos of the obverse, the reverse, the ribbon suspension at thé ring(this one very important)both obv & rev views. & close up photos of the naming on the reverse of the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 Hello Medalguy. Can't tell you 100% if its a fake as I can't see small details or take measurements from the picture. However I can see two points that make me wonder. 1. The pin clasp is not the original, But that could have been changed at a later date, and does not mean the medal is not original. 2. MC's are silver but yours seems to have a brass colour coming through on the back. This could also be a trick of the camera or lighting. Hope I'm wrong, and its original. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalguy99 Posted 17 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2021 Thanks for the information, I will upload better photos when I get a chance. I thought the pin clasp doesn't look original to the medal. The brass color could be from the flash from the camera. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 Has anybody checked whether a Lt Faulkner of the Irish Guards was awarded a M.C. ? It may be my eyes but the reverse of the medal looks to be slightly concave though leaving a slight rim around the perimeter. Does this observation fit with genuine M.C.s or even known forgeries? Am I correct in thinking that the engraving on a M.C. was privately commissioned post award, as such many genuine ones exist that are plain backed as issued ? I may of course have made this up, only 1 member of my family was ever commissioned and doubtless as far away from an M.C. award as I am sitting typing this. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 The ribbon pin clasp is irrevelent, it could have been replaced at any time. Its the cross thats important. The 'brass' appearance could be as a result of age toning as well. Better sharp in focus photos will really help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 I think the key is going to be that suspension, its usually what fakers get incorrect. MC's were normally privately named but as I am not a Gallantry collector I am not 100% on that. Checking to see the Lieut is entitled is a good first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 That's exactly what I said about the pin clasp. Yes, I believe they were issued unnamed, and were done privately. A good quality photo of suspension would help no end. I've noticed your 'In memory' footer lots of Williamson's there. You're going to tell me you're Howard Williamson author of 'The Great War Medal Collectors Companion' Next! In which case I'll just shut up now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 34 minutes ago, mancpal said: Has anybody checked whether a Lt Faulkner of the Irish Guards was awarded a M.C. ? Well, there are only 5 MICs listed on Ancestry to Faulkners with service in the Irish guards. But one of them is an officer, a one time Lieutenant in the Irish Guards, named Walter Douglas Faulkner who won an M.C.... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000526-01757?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=41f5e2aa158e2ae64d7c70e8ed77b4fd&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uDB68&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1834360 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 No Ray, I am not Howard! But we corresponded years ago when he was collecting Williamson medals. I was after Canadian Williamsons then also. I dont have his excellent books but I understand they are excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 17 May , 2021 Share Posted 17 May , 2021 I do have his books VOLS I, II, III. Found them to be a very valuable asset. As an aside he lives just around the corner from me in Harwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 Hi Frank, Welcome to the GWF. Peter Warrington's MC register volume lists no MC awarded to a Lt. W. E. Faulkner of the Irish Guards. There is only one W Faulkner in the whole book: He only lists an Acting Captain Walter Douglas Faulkner of 2nd Bn. Irish Guards - New Years honours award 1 Jan 1919, so no citation. He seems to have died in action in 1940: http://www.rememberthefallen.co.uk/casualty/faulkner-walter-douglas/ The edge definition of the MC in your photos also looks very rounded to me - photo of genuine MC reverse for comparison: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalguy99 Posted 18 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2021 Thanks for the information, I will study it further Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 This may help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 (edited) There are lots of measurement details in this thread (but I suspect it is a secondary issue): Edited 18 May , 2021 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/15271-walter-douglas-faulkner-mc-1-irish-guards.63991/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 (edited) Would anybody be able to post pictures of the reverse side of other genuine MCs and also the reverse of dubious/known fakes? My initial thoughts posted above about the reverse were that it appears to be cast due to the rim effect though perhaps (with my limited knowledge) they were all cast and this one missed the final milling process to flatten the rear surface . I doubt it as I understand medals were pressed rather than moulded. Could the concave appearance be the result of a poor pressing? Does the typeface of the engraving look contemporary to other examples? I'm not trying to shatter dreams and happily accept I know nothing about medals, the above is just my mind working overtime whilst waiting for my tea to cook. Simon An afterthought, were the medals pressed at different factories hence a variation in the end result ? Edited 18 May , 2021 by mancpal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 MC was struck, not cast, Simon. If its cast then its a fake. The MC origially posted by Frank appears not to have been cast, but as myself & others have mentioned, much better, in focus close up photos ate required to be certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 RCNVR, I too have the same images available to form an opinion. please re-read my above posts. You call it struck (likely correct), I called it pressed (same thing with less knowledge of correct terminology) and even suggested casting unlikely. As mentioned above, could anybody explain why the reverse of the medal in question appears to have a rim to its rear whereas others appear to be flat regardless of being struck/pressed/stamped/milled (but not cast) etc. I'm not suggesting there is anything right or wrong about this medal, purely seeking answers, Thanks Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 18 May , 2021 Share Posted 18 May , 2021 Previous forum thread on the subject of possible fake MC's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 19 May , 2021 Share Posted 19 May , 2021 19 hours ago, museumtom said: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/15271-walter-douglas-faulkner-mc-1-irish-guards.63991/ Phenomenal research there. We (I?) tend to forget that Great War participants have lives beyond 11/11/1918. And some of those had even worse experiences the second time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 19 May , 2021 Share Posted 19 May , 2021 In light of his 1940 death in Norway as Commanding Officer 1st IG I wonder if an enquiry with RHQ IG may be appropriate as it is often the case that senior officer medals are bequeathed to the Regiment. If that is the case then it may support the proposition that this MC is a fake. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 19 May , 2021 Share Posted 19 May , 2021 Apart from having Grandfather's MC I know very little. Posts have been quite illuminating on aspects of faked MCs. Poor job to fake an MC and get an initial wrong? Also a poor job if the engraver mis-read an initial but not much the recipient can do about it. The concave suggestions for this MC could be partly down to the photo quality and that the patina is more pronounced at the ends of the crossed while the centre is shinier, giving the impression it's concave? For all we know Faulkener could have lost his, sourced an un-named one and had it engraved. Or, a decendant might have done the same after 1940. Or the engraving wasn't done on the original until after 1940. Is the weight significant? Would fakes have the same detail in the crowns under a loupe? Could photo mine if it's of use? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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