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Remembered Today:

Sapper Thomas A Watt 50167 MM 17th Signal Coy RE


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adrian 1008

Colleagues.

The mower wont start and its now raining, 2 great reasons to retreat to the study and my medal collection !

 

Group MM 1914/15Star BWM VM

 

The above went to France 13/07/1915 > 20/03/1919

The MM was gazetted 23/08/16 P 8364, Somme MM or perhaps before

Thats all I know at present

 

So..... Early life where born 

Btn War diaries for 17th Signal Coy for 1916

 

Images : MIC and RE Medal Roll

I would hazard a guess that the MM was for maintaining lines of Comminication under fire, but its a shot in the dark, sorry bad pun !

 

Any guidance help as always appreciated

Sapper TA Watt MM.jpg

Sapper TA Watt MM 4.jpg

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charlie962
30 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

went to France 13/07/1915

That was when the 17th Div Signal Co went out to France.

 

War Diaries here at Discovery and still free to download if you register

 

Charlie

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adrian 1008

Thank you, Charlie thats today's reading sorted !

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Ivor Anderson

His MM was in the LG on 23 August 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29719/supplement/8364

That LG contained awards for 2 June to 23 July 1916 according to Howard Williamson - so check the WD from June-August 1916.

His MM Index Card is here mis-sorted under 'J A Watt': https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6291238

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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adrian 1008

Thank you. I ve downloaded the Diaries so will concentrate on this timeframe

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charlie962
6 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

thats today's reading sorted

Read quickly, you can hear the grass growing at the moment..

 

I could not spot any other helpful references to him eg age or residence.

 

charlie

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charlie962

looking for near numbers, 50166 Samuel Whitton enlisted with RE Newark(Notts) 9/9/14 and was 'remustered as a Sapper' 1/7/15, and landed France 13/7/15 with 17 Div Sig Co. He was wounded in 1915 but after recovering in UK he rejoined 17th Div Sig Co in late 1916. So worth looking at his service record for clues ?

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adrian 1008
Posted (edited)

Thats a good point thank you I m hoping for rain all day !

 

Looking at Charlie962 assistance earlier, and assuming consecutive numbers Samuel Whitton joins RE and is issued with 50166.

That leads me to Nottinghamshire where a Thomas Alexander Watt is born in 1894. On the 1911 census  Thomas Watt is an apprentice Turner Engineer

 

What is the likelihood of Samuel Whitton and Thomas Watt joining on the same day, they both served with 17 Signal Coy RE

 

Probability or speculation.... Perhaps one of our Numeric experts could offer a view

Edited by adrian 1008
further info
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charlie962
On 13/05/2021 at 10:55, adrian 1008 said:

What is the likelihood of Samuel Whitton and Thomas Watt joining on the same day, they both served with 17 Signal Coy RE

A good find, worth pursuing.   Always possible, particularly if they were employed previously with same firm.

 

Whitton also won an MM LG 1917 I think.

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adrian 1008

Samuel Whitton, according to the 1911 census was a Whitesmith, Thomas Watt was an apprentice engineer (turner) 

 

Their numbers are consecutive, Whitton joined up in Newark 

 

Does that strengthen my case for searching the Nottinghamshire area press for the MM ?

 

I know its a bit tenuous 

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charlie962
9 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Does that strengthen my case for searching the Nottinghamshire area press for the MM ?

yes

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Ivor Anderson

Samuel Whitton RE (50166) MM LG listing in Feb. 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29953/supplement/1756

He enlisted 9-9-1914 according to his SWB roll (Ancestry). The two men disembarked a day apart (1914-15 star roll off Ancestry):

The day difference could be between 'embarking' late one evening and 'disembarking' early next morning?

Screen Shot 2021-05-15 at 13.59.53.png

Screen Shot 2021-05-15 at 14.00.25.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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charlie962
22 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The day difference could be between 'embarking' late one evening and 'disembarking' early next morning?

Using War Diary linked above :

No 1 Section and HQ Sailed 12/7 disembarked 13/7.

  15/7  Nos 2,3 and 4 Sections came over with their respective Brigades 52, 53,54 (I've not checked those dates)

 

 

Ivor, when awards are published there is often the hometown given but I've not found this for Watt. That would be a real clincher.

 

Charlie

 

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Ivor Anderson
13 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Ivor, when awards are published there is often the hometown given but I've not found this for Watt. That would be a real clincher.

Unfortunately most early/1916 MM gazettes do not include a home town. A constant frustration to me! :)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29719/supplement/8364

Samuel Whitton was with 17th Sig. Coy when he won his MM: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6293530

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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charlie962
1 minute ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Unfortunately most early/1916 MM gazettes do not include a home town.

I'd checked the gazette already. When these were published in local papers they seemed sometimes  to know who was local. Somewhere there is an untapped source.......

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Ivor Anderson

Unfortunately my BNA subscription has lapsed. Did you find him listed in a paper with just name, no. & RE?

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charlie962
10 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Did you find him listed in a paper with just name, no. & RE?

Neither he nor Whitton appeared in Nottinghamshire papers on FindmyPast. at all !

 

I only found Whitton in the Scotsman, name number RE

Edited by charlie962
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adrian 1008

So does this take us to Scotland ? I have a British newspaper subscription, but find it really difficult to operate. help !

 

Is it reasonable to look for Whitton and Watt or just Watt in scotland. I cant help feeling that as consecutive numbers  could help, ie find one you find the other, but my sleuth head tells me there s no evidence to support this

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Ivor Anderson
On 13/05/2021 at 09:55, adrian 1008 said:

That leads me to Nottinghamshire where a Thomas Alexander Watt is born in 1894.

Can we even be sure that his middle name is Alexander and not Adam/Albert/Andrew/Abraham etc.?

There are a lot of Thomas A Alexanders on Ancestry!

Even if they enlisted in the same place on the same day they could have been born in different places.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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charlie962
19 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

So does this take us to Scotland ? I have a British newspaper subscription, but find it really difficult to operate. help !

No, no, no. I was just saying that it appeared in the Scotsman (who publish the full casualty list) , not that he came from there. Stick to Nottingham for now.

Edited by charlie962
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adrian 1008
Posted (edited)

Oh I see, something else I ve learnt, thank you.

 

Ivor I think I saw a baptism reference as Thomas Alexander

 

Looking at the 1901 census has the family living with a servant and Thomas Senior is a farmer, but he is dead before the 1911 census

 

All pre supposing this is the right chap !

Edited by adrian 1008
Auto correct ahhhh!
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charlie962

Find my past do have some Nottingham papers but I do not understand why they miss Whitton and (perhaps) Watt. Thus Notts Libraries must be the next step, I suspect.

 

charlie

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charlie962

Adrian

 

I think the best place to find Notts newspapers is microfilm at a Notts public library. But lots of libraries remain shut, I think.

 

FMP have only digitised some. These are the same as they have on BritishArchive although I understand it is a different search engine.

 

charlie

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adrian 1008

Would the LG be the first to publish the award so should i search local press after the date of him appearing in the Gazette ? 

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Ivor Anderson

Unless the soldier's family informed the local press of the award before it was listed in the LG.

Such reports sometimes give details of the action it was awarded for. Most awards were listed in the Gazette 2-4 months after the action.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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