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Gordon Bannerman

Anyone have any information of the operations and movements of the 14th Battalion of the HLI in the First World War?

 

Any good regimental histories?  

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Tom Lang
3 minutes ago, Gordon Bannerman said:

Anyone have any information of the operations and movements of the 14th Battalion of the HLI in the First World War?

 

Any good regimental histories?  

Hello Gordon,

My grandfather served with the 14th HLI.

I have transcribed the Battalion War Diary, so if you provide more details (who, what, where, when, etc) I will do what I can to help.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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jay dubaya

If you register a free account with the National Archives you can then download (for free) the battalion war diary here. I’m not aware of any battalion history other than what may be included in the History of the 40th Division.

 

who couldn’t say no to a transcribed copy of a war diary...👍

Edited by jay dubaya
posted same time as Tom
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Polar Bear
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Gordon Bannerman

Hello Tom,

 

Thank you very much indeed for your reply. I did look up some War Office records at the National Archives many years ago but couldn't really make much sense of the movements of the Battalion in the short time I consulted the material - I was fixated on researching my doctoral thesis at that time so didn't devote as much time to the research as I perhaps should have done.

My grandfather's elder brother, David Elder Bannerman, (Service No. 53337), was killed at Dewsbury Trench or Igaree Corner (it is not clear from the Regimental Diary) on the Western Front, on 3 February 1918. 

I would be interested in knowing any details of the Battalion at that time.

Thank you very much indeed for your time.  

Thank you for your replies! They are much appreciated.  

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Tom Lang
5 minutes ago, Gordon Bannerman said:

Hello Tom,

 

Thank you very much indeed for your reply. I did look up some War Office records at the National Archives many years ago but couldn't really make much sense of the movements of the Battalion in the short time I consulted the material - I was fixated on researching my doctoral thesis at that time so didn't devote as much time to the research as I perhaps should have done.

My grandfather's elder brother, David Elder Bannerman, (Service No. 53337), was killed at Dewsbury Trench or Igaree Corner (it is not clear from the Regimental Diary) on the Western Front, on 3 February 1918. 

I would be interested in knowing any details of the Battalion at that time.

Thank you very much indeed for your time.  

Thank you for your replies! They are much appreciated.  

Hello Gordon,

I am attaching a snippet from my transcription of the War Diary.

It looks like he may be the "1 OR Killed", as mentioned in the WD.

Tom.

 

14th HLI - WD Feb 1918 snippet.jpg

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Tom Lang

The CWGC Casualty details note that he Died of Wounds, which creates the anomaly.

See:

Casualty Details | CWGC

 

Tom

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Tom Lang

The CWGC Map Reference shown is 57c/G.3.d.5.5 which is where he is buried.

The WD notes that the "old Brigade HQ C.9.d.9.5.

Tom.

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Tom Lang

Looks like you may have his number incorrectly typed - you typed 53337 but his Soldier's Effects record shows 53537.

His mother Margaret was his sole legatee, and he Died of Wounds at 45th CCS, France.

Tom.

Edited by Tom Lang
typo
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Tom Lang

A Dependant's Pension Card on Fold3 confirm the above info, and shows that his sister Joan Bannerman, 1 Ellen St, Dundee, received a pension of 10/6 weekly.

Tom.

Edited by Tom Lang
typo
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Gordon Bannerman

Thank you for your replies! They are much appreciated.  

 

Fabulous information Tom. Thank you so much. Yes I did wonder about the 'died from wounds' before. I guess the anomaly might be resolved depending on what time the diary was written. I didn't know that about his sister receiving a war pension. In the absence of dependents a sibling received the pension? Very interesting.     

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Gordon Bannerman

Tom, Thank you so much for the correction as to his service number.

His sister who received the pension would have been aged 17 in 1918. Her name was Jean I think.   

In the local press of the time, the People's Journal of Dundee had the following moving notice of death inserted by his elder sister:

"BANNERMAN—died of wounds on the 3rd Feb., Pte. David Bannerman, H.L.I., aged 19 years, son of Mrs. Margaret Bannerman, 1 Ellen St., Dundee

A short verse followed the notice:

Could we have smoothed the hair

From off his fair brow

Our hearts, I think, would not have bled

As they are bleeding now

Inserted by his sister HAY"

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Tom Lang

The National Library of Scotland (NLS) have some (not all) WW1 Military Trench Maps.

They are at:

British First World War Trench Maps, 1915-1918 - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk)

 

I am attaching a snippet of map 57c NW2 Edition 4A - Vlaux-Vraucourt.

I have marked Dewsbury Trench and Iggaree Corner.

Tom.

14th HLI - WD Feb 1918 map snippet.jpg

Edited by Tom Lang
typos
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Tom Lang
7 minutes ago, Gordon Bannerman said:

Thank you for your replies! They are much appreciated.  

 

Fabulous information Tom. Thank you so much. Yes I did wonder about the 'died from wounds' before. I guess the anomaly might be resolved depending on what time the diary was written. I didn't know that about his sister receiving a war pension. In the absence of dependents a sibling received the pension? Very interesting.     

His mother may have died, and his sister became his Next-of-Kin.

Tom.

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Gordon Bannerman

Thank you for the map reference Tom: that is very interesting indeed. 

 

By the way, his mother didn't die until 1947 so that is a bit of a mystery as to why she didn't get the pension.  

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Tom Lang

You may also use the marvelous 'tMapper' (created by a GWF map guru whose name (embarassingly) escapes me right now)).

If you enter the the Map Reference '57c.C.10.c.43.03' into the search box in the top left, OR the Place Name 'Noreuil' in the top right search box, this wonderful mapping software will take you there to zoom around.

tMapper: WW1 Mapping

 

Tom

1 minute ago, Gordon Bannerman said:

Thank you for the map reference Tom: that is very interesting indeed. 

 

By the way, his mother didn't die until 1947 so that is a bit of a mystery as to why she didn't get the pension.  

We'll never know why, and are left to guess.

Maybe his mother nominated his sister.

Your guess is as good as mine.

Tom.

 

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Gordon Bannerman

Brilliant. Thank you so much Tom: much appreciated.

 

Best regards,

 

Gordon

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Gordon Bannerman

Interesting stuff Tom. I'm thinking because the mother wouldn't be a dependent of the son but if she had a child under 18 maybe then that was considered a loss of income to the household that should be compensated by government? 

Did mothers receive pensions when their sons were killed? I'm thinking that would just be if it was a husband?

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Dependants were financial dependants. This was usually demonstrated by the soldier having deductions from their wages paid to the person concerned.

Most soldiers who'd been living at home prior to joining up would probably have been paying something from their wages to either their mother or father for their keep and continued to do so while they were away serving. Of course a soldier could, (and some did), choose to make such payments to other family members \ friends. By having deductions taken the serviceman opened the way for a claim to a Dependants Pension in the event of their death in service.

 

If the Mother was receiving the wages deduction then it was her who could claim the Dependants Pension. If she died and was survived by the husband then he could inherit it, but he couldn't claim it in his name while she was alive. (And of course the reverse applied if the money was going to the Father).

 

Wives and children were covered by a separate pension system.

 

Plenty of threads on the forum and lots of experts, (who will now come in and "critique" my over-simplications :)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Gordon Bannerman
17 minutes ago, PRC said:

Dependants were financial dependants. This was usually demonstrated by the soldier having deductions from their wages paid to the person concerned.

Most soldiers who'd been living at home prior to joining up would probably have been paying something from their wages to either their mother or father for their keep and continued to do so while they were away serving. Of course a soldier could, (and some did), choose to make such payments to other family members \ friends. By having deductions taken the serviceman opened the way for a claim to a Dependants Pension in the event of their death in service.

 

If the Mother was receiving the wages deduction then it was her who could claim the Dependants Pension. If she died and was survived by the husband then he could inherit it, but he couldn't claim it in his name while she was alive. (And of course the reverse applied if the money was going to the Father).

 

Wives and children were covered by a separate pension system.

 

Plenty of threads on the forum and lots of experts, (who will now come in and "critique" my over-simplications :)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Thank you Peter for that very clear explanation. It sounds as if there were a multitude of different circumstances that could apply depending of the particular financial position and configuration of the family. I think that is what I was getting at when I mentioned loss of income to the household. It sounds to me, given the information you have related, as if he must have stipulated that the payments were to go to his sister, but at this distance in time, that itself is speculation on my part!

Thanks for taking the time to reply at length: it is much appreciated.

 

Gordon        

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Matlock1418
12 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

You may also use the marvelous 'tMapper' (created by a GWF map guru whose name (embarassingly) escapes me right now)).

If you enter the the Map Reference '57c.C.10.c.43.03' into the search box in the top left, OR the Place Name 'Noreuil' in the top right search box, this wonderful mapping software will take you there to zoom around.

tMapper: WW1 Mapping

@WhiteStarLine may be our absent friend.

;-) M

 

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Tom Lang

Gordon,
Since your ancestor 'Died of Wounds' on 3rd Feb, 1918, it is possible that his injuries happened in the prior few days or weeks.
Since he died in a Casualty Clearing Station, this suggests that his injuries may have happened that day (or a few days earlier, because he would have then been transferred back to a Field Hospital).
The CWGC have 2 soldiers from the 14th Bn HLI who died on 3rd Feb 1918 (see my attached list). Your ancestor is named on this list. The other soldier (Robert Shepherd Paton) may be the one mentioned in the War Diary on 3rd Feb as "1 OR Killed".
I am attaching snippets from my transcription of the War Diary to give you a snapshot of activities in January, 1918, and in particular the list of wounded on page 3 of January.
I also include a CWGC list of those who died during January, 1918.
This may be of help, but then again it could be a complete red-herring.
Kindest Regards,
Tom.

14th HLI - WD 1918 01 p01 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 01 p02 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 01 p03 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 01 p04 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 02 p01 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 02 p02 snippet.jpg

14th HLI - WD 1918 02 p03 snippet.jpg

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Gordon Bannerman

Hello Tom,

 

Really I can't thank you enough for this information. You have gone well beyond the call of duty and I appreciate it greatly. As you say, it is a possibility he was wounded earlier given where he died. Thank you so much for going to all this trouble. It is fascinating, intriguing, and most of all absolutely tragic. How could we ever re-pay or compensate the sacrifices made by that generation? 

 

Best regards, 

 

Gordon      

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Tom Lang
On 10/05/2021 at 14:33, Tom Lang said:

Looks like you may have his number incorrectly typed - you typed 53337 but his Soldier's Effects record shows 53537.

His mother Margaret was his sole legatee, and he Died of Wounds at 45th CCS, France.

Tom.

Hello Gordon,

 

45th Casualty Clearing Station
(extract from the mother site LLT)
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/locations-of-british-casualty-clearing-stations/

 

"Edgehill Sep 16 - Apr 17; Achiet-le-Grand Apr 17 - Mar 18; Orville Mar 18 - Apr 18; Gezaincourt Apr 18; Auchy (les Hesdin) Apr 18 - Aug 18; Bailleulval Aug 18 - Oct 18; Awoingt Oct 18 - Dec 18".

This confirms that the 45th CCS was in Achiet-le-Grand in Jan/Feb 1918.


Your Ancestor is buried in ACHIET-LE-GRAND COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION, grave reference II. E. 22.

Casualty Details | CWGC

 

Note that CWGC has him numbered as '53337'.
His MIC, etc., shows '53537' (courtesy of Ancestry (spit) and Fold3).

 

This may have been the source of your 'typo'.

 

You might want to submit a case to the CWGC to correct his number.

 

Kindest Regards,
Tom Lang.

Bannerman David E - Pte 53537 HLI - MIC.jpg

Bannerman David E - Pte 53537 HLI - Medal Roll VM and BWM.jpg

Bannerman David E - Pte 53537 HLI - Soldiers Effects.jpg

Bannerman David E - Pte 53537 HLI - Dependants Pension Card.jpg

Bannerman David E - Pte 53537 HLI - Dependants Address Card.jpg

Edited by Tom Lang
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