Mystery soldier

[johnboy]

6 hours ago, helpjpl said:

A strong possibility. Rank, Driver with ASC fits with pic. Name also a near fit. Anything on reverse of card?

JP

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, helpjpl said:

 

JP

That does seem very promising JP.  Good work!

[corisande]

Sorry to sound un-enthusiastic

 

This is Theodore Ruth's tree - click - basically he is Burnley born and bred, and difficult to see what connection he could have had to the OPs Mother!

[Margaret Ross]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That does seem very promising JP.  Good work!

 

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That does seem very promising JP.  Good work!

My brain is exhausted.  You have all worked so hard and come up with so many ideas and helpful information.  However, I have spent HOURS on Ancestry and Scotlandspeople and simply cannot find any details about any of the names which have come up which would give me a definite person or a link to Peebles, Paisley, Arbroath or Orkney where my wider family come from.  I have found a Theodore Ruth, born in Burnley in the 2nd quarter of  1892 in Burnley but he has vanished by the 1901 and 1911 censuses, both in England and Scotland.  Thank you all.  I am going to put the photo to one side for a few weeks now and then come back to it fresh(er).

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/05/2021 at 03:50, corisande said:

Sorry to sound un-enthusiastic

 

This is Theodore Ruth's tree - click - basically he is Burnley born and bred, and difficult to see what connection he could have had to the OPs Mother!

 

I understand totally why that might be the perception, but in fairness if the soldier concerned had been with a battalion based somewhere near Margaret's forebear (in Scotland, or elsewhere) then it's entirely possible that they might have met socially and surely that's all that it takes.  There were a number of men from the North of England that ended up in the pre-war Cameronians and, given the soldier's GCB for 5-years blemish free service, I think that he is probably a pre-war regular still serving in 1914, or perhaps recalled during WW1.  The fact that he is wearing regimental pattern stripes for GCB is a big hint too that he was a regular and the photo taken before the war.  Once the war started ordinary drab chevrons were usually used.

 

NB.  In 1914 both the regimental depot and (separately) the 1st Battalion Cameronian's (Scottish Rifles) were based in Glasgow.  If I were a betting man I'd wager that the fellow in the photo is from one of those two units before the war.  The 1st Battalion were in Maryhill Barracks (aka Garrioch Bks).  The depot was in Hamilton Barracks.

 

[johnboy]

His Mic gives Asc as regiment he went overseas with. If he was a pre war regular would he have been enlisted into another regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, johnboy said:

His Mic gives Asc as regiment he went overseas with. If he was a pre war regular would he have been enlisted into another regiment?

If medically unfit (i.e. of a lesser grade), or just considered a little old for infantry service then yes, absolutely.  I think that the photo is probably prewar for the reasons I've explained, although of course that's just my speculation based on what I can see.

Edited 10 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[johnboy]

Thanks

[Alisonmallen62]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Despite that type of routine worship, which was followed by pretty much all regiments at that time  (i.e. church parade was mandatory), the Cameronian’s also commemorated their origins with a regimental day on 14th May that involved all men going to a ‘conventicle’ at the Regimental church armed with their rifles. Taking arms to church was highly irregular, but commemorated the time when the regiment’s creed was illegal and punishable by severe consequences.  As part of the tradition the ceremony only commenced once sentries had taken post at each of four sides of the gathering facing outwards in an alert position.  You can perhaps imagine that it might seem strange that soldiers raised under different beliefs should attend such an act of worship, but they did so as a matter of discipline and regimental cohesion.  It was accepted as part of ‘their’ regimental day.

 

I will attach this if you don’t mind to my family research as I had no idea at all of this. 

[Alisonmallen62]

On 09/05/2021 at 21:51, johnboy said:

Is  it possible first word is not'from' but 'thom' [thomas]? the word we are taking as Ruth seems to be in a different hand. Could it be a place name?

Or ‘Mrs’ as the writing is quite old fashioned and curly 

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/05/2021 at 14:27, Alisonmallen62 said:

I will attach this if you don’t mind to my family research as I had no idea at all of this. 

I’m glad it’s useful Alison.  One last aspect is that the regiment issued each of its soldiers with a personal copy of the holy bible inscribed with their last 4-numbers on the inside of the cover and with the regimental cap badge on the front.

 

 

[TullochArd]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

....... if the soldier concerned had been with a battalion based somewhere near Margaret's forebear (in Scotland, or elsewhere) then it's entirely possible that they might have met socially and surely that's all that it takes.  There were a number of men from the North of England that ended up in the pre-war Cameronians ......

 

 

 

I'm in Rawtenstall, Lancashire (about four miles from Burnley) and my research shows a, not insignificant, number of local men served in Scottish Regiments and the largest number went to the Cameronians.  The formality of the dedication further suggests to me an acquaintance rather than a relationship or actual family connection. I support Frogsmile's observation that it is likely "the soldier concerned had been with a battalion based somewhere near Margaret's forebear" 

 

I've got some research on the ASC(T) detachment in Cloughfold planned so I'll keep keep Theo. Ruth in mind in the, rather unlikely, event anything comes to light.  

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That's an interesting illustration FS.

Do you know if the flag in real life really had the second 'N' in the word 'COVENANTS' written back to front, or is that a mistake by the engraver?

[corisande]

7 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Do you know if the flag in real life really had the second 'N' in the word 'COVENANTS' written back to front, or is that a mistake by the engraver?

 

It seems to be a mistake. There is a write up on Covenanters here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenanters

 

And Covenant Flag on Google gives hundreds of options which all seem to be conventional Ns

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I thought it might be!

Thanks C.

[corisande]

I looked it mainly to see if there was any link to the Ulster Covenant - there isn't

[Margaret Ross]

15 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

 

I'm in Rawtenstall, Lancashire (about four miles from Burnley) and my research shows a, not insignificant, number of local men served in Scottish Regiments and the largest number went to the Cameronians.  The formality of the dedication further suggests to me an acquaintance rather than a relationship or actual family connection. I support Frogsmile's observation that it is likely "the soldier concerned had been with a battalion based somewhere near Margaret's forebear" 

 

I've got some research on the ASC(T) detachment in Cloughfold planned so I'll keep keep Theo. Ruth in mind in the, rather unlikely, event anything comes to light.  

 

Thank you.  I will trawl through my uncle's autograph book (David Reid Dewar, RAMC) and my dad's (too young for World War 1).  Their father was Baptist minister in Peebles and soldiers were billeted in the parks in Peebles, some of them attending my grandfather's church.  I found these autograph books in my parents' home, having had no idea that they existed.  Will let you know if any similar name appears.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

That's an interesting illustration FS.

Do you know if the flag in real life really had the second 'N' in the word 'COVENANTS' written back to front, or is that a mistake by the engraver?

No, I’m afraid I don’t know Dai.  The words on the right side of the banner also appear to use an eccentric form of spelling.  Perhaps it’s intended to reflect the then culture whereby spelling could be both phonetic and decorative.

Edited 11 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[BereniceUK]

....There were Burnley residents, some of whom were described in the local paper as being Burnley-born and bred, who were either regulars or Reservists in Scottish regiments during the Boer War.

....That I know of, there were at least four in the Coldstream Guards, two in the Scots Guards, two in the King's Own Scottish Borderers, and one in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

[Alisonmallen62]

That is great info Frogsmile thank you. Ref Cameron’s base, although 2nd war my grandfather and uncle knew Maryhill barracks well one as a South Wales borderer and one as a Cameronian.  The N on the banner links to extremely old style of writing I guess as does the W and N of crown.  I asked a colleague who does varies styles of calligraphy but I guess it could be a back to front error too! 
 

 

[Margaret Ross]

23 hours ago, Margaret Ross said:

Thank you.  I will trawl through my uncle's autograph book (David Reid Dewar, RAMC) and my dad's (too young for World War 1).  Their father was Baptist minister in Peebles and soldiers were billeted in the parks in Peebles, some of them attending my grandfather's church.  I found these autograph books in my parents' home, having had no idea that they existed.  Will let you know if any similar name appears.

Have now read carefully the 3 autograph books - one of David Dewar's (RAMC) which he took to Ballykinler in 1917 and two of my dad's (born 1902) with lots of signatures, religious sayings, Biblical texts and drawings by RAMC lads billeted in Peebles in 1916.  Nothing that resembles Roth, Ruth or any of the other possibilities that have come up.