Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 I'm trying to find a site which would help me find out about an Officer in the Norfolk regiment who was Court Marshalled in 1918. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Hi Paul, welcome to the forum Ancestry has some records (subscription needed after free trial time) Disciplinary (ancestry.co.uk) but many of them are just a link to Fold3 (part of Ancestry but seperate!) also subscription required after free trial time Fold3 - Historical military records regards Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2021 5 minutes ago, jonbem said: Hi Paul, welcome to the forum Ancestry has some records (subscription needed after free trial time) Disciplinary (ancestry.co.uk) but many of them are just a link to Fold3 (part of Ancestry but seperate!) also subscription required after free trial time Fold3 - Historical military records regards Jon Many thanks for your quick reply. Yes I have tried Fold 3 and Ancestry but no joy on my Officer. I suppose my next port of call would be the Regiment Museum or Kew records ? regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Do you knoe if he was court martialed in the UK or overseas? If overseas there might be something in the war diary. If in the UK - just possibly something in the newspapers. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 His officer file at Kew might be of use and may include more details. However, some files have been weeded of details and you would need to visit the National Archives. Providing the man's name would help us to advise you. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 (edited) OP has revealed to me his officer's name by PM. Given as: Odden Hewlett REID READ [OP has corrected] And a bit more info: "my man was from 1909 till 1914 an Assistant Cashier in the RN. He then went to the 28th Artists Rifles Battalion where he was commissioned into the Norfolk's. where he was wounded and then finished in the 71ST Mortar Battalion. . He was then cashiered by sentence of GCM 23.1.1918. However I find a number of entries in the London Gazette and Monthly lists as Odden Hewlett READ And a Google search under that latter names reveals a number of potentially interesting looking hits including London Gazette and Navy Lists etc. - and some other stuff! :-) M Edit additions from OP Any info or knowledge on the following individual would be appreciated : Odden Hewlitt Read born Assam 1888. 1901 census states he lived in Mildenhall Suffolk 1909 joined the RH as a Clerk and made assistant cashier serving on HMS Blake and Lord Nelson (1914) 1914/15 joined the 28th Rifles where he was commissioned into the 9th Norfolk Reg. Wounded 3/08/ 1916 Capt O H Reid cashiered by sentence of GCM 25.1 1918 LG 15.2 1918. Was turned down three times for SW badge and ineligible for medals according to his records. I have his 1914 Star that is named LT OH Read 71st TMB I have had much pleasure in researching this gentleman but it all leaves many questions. Edited 7 May , 2021 by Matlock1418 typo and addtions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Officer file reference is here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1098132 Once the archives reopen a researcher could get a copy for you. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 (edited) His Naval Record of Service is at the National Archives ADM 196/171/515 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7576382 Free to download. :-) M Edit: MIC at the National Archives - appears likely OP has seen this - Starts with 28/London Regt as 2446 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4796573 And ends up Cashiered and on medal Suspense List 21 Edited 7 May , 2021 by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Many thanks Matlock . why would a Officer in the RN join the army ? and what happened for him to GCM . His records also stated that he lived in 22 Pollard Street West hendon after he left which was the home of Fred Nicholls RN who was killed in 1915. Why do I have a 1914 Star with his name on which unless he qualified for while he was serving in the RN should have been issued. Hope I'm not being boring about this but many thanks for your assistance. regards Paul Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Paul Gibson said: why would a Officer in the RN join the army ? Perhaps to avoid the past?? - this has been previously written https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Rum_Sodomy_Prayers_and_the_Lash_Revisite/dftdDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="Odden+Hewlett+READ"&pg=PA92&printsec=frontcover 19 minutes ago, Paul Gibson said: Why do I have a 1914 Star with his name on which unless he qualified for while he was serving in the RN should have been issued. Is it a 1914 Star or a 1914-15 Star? His MIC as OH READ 2446 28LR shows a 1914-15 Star ['15 Star'] As an officer he would have to apply for his medals but perhaps as an OR one got sent out automatically before matters crystallised ?? That said the Medal Roll records "NO MEDALS" and "Cashiered" and "Ineligible NO STAR" Might he have otherwise acquired a Star for himself? - is there any evidence of the back being altered and 're-manufactured'?? :-) M Edited 7 May , 2021 by Matlock1418 addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Matlock once again and many thanks for your thoughts. The medal is a 1914 Star but it stats LT OH Read. As an ex RAF man my knowledge of our medals always states LEUT. I'm still curious to why he was cashiered out of the army. A huge disgrace for an officer in those days. Many thanks Paul Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 2 minutes ago, Paul Gibson said: The medal is a 1914 Star but it stats LT OH Read To me LT or Lt would generally suggest Lieutenant, as would Lieut. Anyway not sure how the Navy might emboss a Star - Surely the Navy would put R.N. Might perhaps be Navy [?], but not sure how he would qualify as an Assistant Paymaster - I suppose he might have been aboard a ship that qualified?? Is such service seen on his Naval Record? [worth a read and proper interpretation by a 'Navy man'] = It certainly isn't - He resigned from the Navy on 24 June 1914 [pre-war!] to avoid CM for alleged indecent assault on a boy. And your earlier "71st TMB" has me puzzled - As a largely 'Army man' to me TMB would usually suggest Trench Mortar Battery and yet speculating for the Navy that MTB a Motor Torpedo Boat - but those don't really seem to fit. What's the back of that Star like? - Have you obverse and reverse photos you could post for the medal experts to consider? ??? :-) M P.S. Sorry - I seem to have as many questions as you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 32 minutes ago, Paul Gibson said: I'm still curious to why he was cashiered out of the army. A huge disgrace for an officer in those days. You certainly seem to need to look at/get at his Officer's Papers at the NA as @Colin W Taylor has suggested above. [and if/when you do please let us know the outcome!] :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2021 Matlock once again many thanks. You obviously have a great interest in the past as i have. Further to my research the 1939 census put our man living on his own (unmarried) and it was very interesting that you sent me the report about how I thought about the gentleman. I have only just bought the medal and will receive next week i will send you photos if thats ok. Regards Paul Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 7 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2021 1 minute ago, Paul Gibson said: Matlock once again many thanks. You obviously have a great interest in the past as i have. Further to my research the 1939 census put our man living on his own (unmarried) and it was very interesting that you sent me the report about how I thought about the gentleman. I have only just bought the medal and will receive next week i will send you photos if thats ok. Regards Paul Gibson It would appear I am now a lance Cpl. !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 7 May , 2021 Share Posted 7 May , 2021 2 minutes ago, Paul Gibson said: I have only just bought the medal and will receive next week i will send you photos if thats ok. Of course! - Please do post them in your thread. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: 1914/15 joined the 28th Rifles where he was commissioned into the 9th Norfolk Reg. The 9th Norfolks were part of the 71st Brigade, as was the 71st Trench Mortar Battery. Officers of the Trench Mortar Battery would have been attached from the Infantry Battalions that made up the Brigade. The 9th Norfolks went overseas with the 24th Division, landing at Boulogne on the 30th August 1915. The Brigade transferred to the 6th Division in October 1915. The Trench Mortar Battery was formed in April 1916. The MiC shows him in France from the 14th February 1915 with the 28th Battalion, London Regiment. The 1/28th had been in France since October 1914, so he would have been part of a draft, probably from the 2/28th. 2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Wounded 3/08/ 1916 Do we know if he was medically evacuated back to the UK? The December 1916 British Army Montly List records him on the General List of the New Armies, a temporary Lieutenant with effect from the 8th July 1916 and serving with a Trench Mortar Battery. (Column 1632) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123863563 However there can be several months delay in the list reflecting reality. Hopefully someone can track down the 71st Trench Mortar Battery War Diary - I suspect it is attached to one of the other Brigade War Diaries, although is not in the Brigade H.Q or 9th Norfolk ones at the National Archive. Presumably he will be part of the Day 1 Officer Establishment of the Battery and there will also be a reference to his wounding. Would be interesting to know if there is any subsequent reference to him. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 This explains why he left the Navy from FMP with thanks. Last entry bottom right George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibson Posted 8 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2021 Many thanks for your time and efforts George. That piece of paper answers a lot of questions about the man for me. How he was able to join the army and then be commissioned is beyond me but I suppose it was a time of war. I suppose his Court Marshal in 1918 was just his past catching up with him. Once again thank you and everybody else for your time time and the research you have done on this subject. Paul Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 10 hours ago, Paul Gibson said: It would appear I am now a lance Cpl. !!! Don't forget Lance Corporal is an appointment not a rank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 8 hours ago, PRC said: The 9th Norfolks were part of the 71st Brigade, as was the 71st Trench Mortar Battery. Officers of the Trench Mortar Battery would have been attached from the Infantry Battalions that made up the Brigade. The 9th Norfolks went overseas with the 24th Division, landing at Boulogne on the 30th August 1915. The Brigade transferred to the 6th Division in October 1915. The Trench Mortar Battery was formed in April 1916. The MiC shows him in France from the 14th February 1915 with the 28th Battalion, London Regiment. The 1/28th had been in France since October 1914, so he would have been part of a draft, probably from the 2/28th. Thanks Peter, Knew our man from Norfolk would eventually emerge! ;-) Any explanation as to why 71 TMB would end upon a 1914 Star with his name? 1 hour ago, George Rayner said: This explains why he left the Navy from FMP with thanks. Last entry bottom right George, And our man from Suffolk! Now every one knows! Paul, Sorry, thought you must have seen that page as referred to earlier/so little 'response' to my posts on the subject. We await your medal photos. Meantime - As for researching Court Martial / Courts Marital then I do recommend a search on GWF [box in the top right of screen] - there are lots and lots of threads and posts. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 1 minute ago, RaySearching said: Don't forget Lance Corporal is an appointment not a rank And on GWF not so easily lost as a stripe in the trenches. Heaven forfend, I'm now a Brigadier-General !!l ;-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 I don't know how that would have worked in the forces. Whether his initial resignation 'wiped the slate clean' as it were or it could be carried forward to be dealt with later. I imagine it was a DCM for another offence but I stand to be corrected by records and more knowledgeable folk George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 58 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Any explanation as to why 71 TMB would end upon a 1914 Star with his name? The obvious one would be self-awarded and inscribed onto another mans' medals or a replica. It can't be his first unit in Theatre during the qualifying period as the unit didn't exist then full-stop. However before passing too harsh a judgment let's see what the photo's have to show us. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 8 May , 2021 Share Posted 8 May , 2021 1 minute ago, PRC said: The obvious one would be self-awarded and inscribed onto another mans' medals or a replica. It can't be his first unit in Theatre during the qualifying period as the unit didn't exist then full-stop. However before passing too harsh a judgment let's see what the photo's have to show us. Thanks for the reality check. Indeed, awaited with interest. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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