Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Recommended Posts

Davidnrvp

Could anyone tell me how to track this gunner down he is my grand father 

And only because I ordered my dad's bdm certificates it says occupation of my grandfather 

How would I find out about .him ?????

16203006079621948265110454252031.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Admin
ss002d6252
6 minutes ago, Davidnrvp said:

Could anyone tell me how to track this gunner down he is my grand father 

And only because I ordered my dad's bdm certificates it says occupation of my grandfather 

How would I find out about .him ?????

16203006079621948265110454252031.jpg

When was he born (your father) ?

 

Craig

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Davidnrvp and welcome to the forum.

 

That looks like a 7 digit service number 2042537, in the North Staffordshire Regiment – however that number comes from a block originally allocated to the Royal Engineers as part of the Army renumbering in 1920. This renumbering was the first time British Soldiers truly had a unique number, one that would remain with them throughtout their career, regard;ess of unit served with.

 

If he served after 1920 then his records will still be held by the Ministry of Defence.

 

A few years back the MoD did release a list of those soldiers born before 1901 for whom they still held records. It’s now available as a database on Ancestry, although some members on the forum did keep a copy of the original lists and so may be able to check.

 

If this does appear to be the situation then the process and cost of applying for a copy of his records can be found here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites
Davidnrvp

It was actually my dad's dad my dad was born in 1943 

Does that say gunner at top ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Admin
ss002d6252
1 minute ago, Davidnrvp said:

It was actually my dad's dad my dad was born in 1943 

Does that say gunner at top ?

So this certificate is from 1943 ?

Craig

Link to post
Share on other sites
Davidnrvp
On 06/05/2021 at 23:07, ss002d6252 said:

So this certificate is from 1943 ?

Craig

Yes it's my dad's b certificate 

And his dad was the one who declared it , I only just received my mum and dad's b cirtificates 

Because for the Las 35 years we all was under the assumption that my grandad was a factory worker because that's what is signed on my mum and dad's marriage certificate , so am trying to do some research on it ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Admin
ss002d6252
2 minutes ago, Davidnrvp said:

Yes it's my dad's b certificate 

And his dad was the one who declared it , I only just received my mum and dad's b cirtificates 

Because for the Las 35 years we all was under the assumption that my grandad was a factory worker because that's what is signed on my mum and dad's marriage certificate , so am trying to do some research on it ?

What's his full name and date of birth ? We might be able to track some earlier service details down.

Craig

Link to post
Share on other sites

While we wait I’ll have a guess. Birth certificate shows an address of 120 Grange Road, Birmingham, N14, and it looks like the father of the child is an N.V. Perrins.

 

On the 1939 Register the first two occupants of that address are most likely a married couple, George and Elsie Colbourne. The fifth person in the household is (probably) their daughter Louisa Irene Colbourne, born 28th April 1921, a Shop Assistant (Fried Fish). The register was subsequently updated that her name was changed to Perrins on marriage.

 

A Louisa I Colbourne married a Norman V. Perrins in the Birmingham District in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1942.

 

But I’m not seeing a likely child of that couple registered in England & Wales in 1943 – the nearest is a David N. Perrins, mothers’ maiden name “Coleman”, which was registered in the Birmingham District in Q3 1943. Could there have been a mistake in transcribing the local register into the central records?

 

I can only find one prior birth of a Norman V. Perrins in the civil birth records of England & Wales – registered in the Stone District of Staffordshire, mothers’ maiden name Adams, in the April to June quarter, (Q1), of 1921.

 

I think I’ve been able to eliminate the three Norman Perrins born c1921 who are recorded on the 1939 Register, so seems likely Norman was either a pre-war Regular, or a Reservist \Territorial Forces soldier who had been mobilised on the outbreak of war. Members of the armed forces at their war station when the Register was taken on the 29th September 1939 were outside the scope of the exercise.

 

The death of a Norman Vincent Perrins, born 2nd March 1921, was recorded in the Birmingham District in Q2 1996. (At the time he was born you had 42 days after the event to register the births. Births are then recorded in the civil index in the quarter registered, which isn’t necessarily the same as quarter born. So a birth of the 2nd March and an April to June registration is not incompatible.)

 

So if my informed guesses are correct, no real Great War involvement at all.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
Link to post
Share on other sites
travers61

You asked:

Because for the last 35 years we all was under the assumption that my grandad was a factory worker because that's what is signed on my mum and dad's marriage certificate , so am trying to do some research on it ?

 

With my family history hat on (and apologies to the moderators for straying too far from WW1) I think there is a link between the occupations on both certificates.  On the birth cert his civilian occupation before war time soldiering is given as a Potter - Journeyman. The general meaning of a journeyman is someone who is skilled in the building trade or a craft, & has passed an apprenticeship, so I think that before wartime military service he was working in a pottery works as a skilled worker.

 

Some registrars keeping to the rules would put down factory worker even if he was a skilled man if they felt that his real trade did not fit any of the terms they could use or he had not qualified at that time.  Although its unusual, If his marriage was during the war its possible that his military role was not listed on the cert for a few reasons, maybe the registrar would/could only put down one occupation so he used his qualified trade.  His role in the pottery trade could also have been a reserved occupation.

 

Being a potter would fit with the poss birth in Stone District in 1921 , the town of Stone is only a few miles from the major pottery centre of Stoke-on-Trent, and is within the recruiting area of the North Staffs Regiment, if he transferred from the Royal Engineers to a local regiment.

 

There are at least two men listed on Commonwealth War Graves Commission with Royal Engineer numbers who died while in the regular army 2nd Btn North Staffs which may give some idea when his number was issued. Men in the Infantry BEF in Belgium tended to be regulars, recalled reservists, or territorials, rather than wartime conscripts.

2047942 John Henry Turner, 2nd Btn North Staffs, died Belgium May 1940 age 19, born Grimsby, resided Grimsby. Parents lived Grimsby.

2052493 William Woodward, 2nd Btn North Staffs, died Belgium May 1940 age 20, born & resided in Stoke-on-Trent

 

 

I don't think his rank on the birth cert is gunner, but can't come up with no alternatives.

 

There is a lot of WW2 knowledge on ww2talk.com which mainly covers British & Commonwealth forces, & operates in a similar way to this one with lots of helpful folks & free to join.

http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php

Edited by travers61
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Some registrars keeping to the rules would put down factory worker even if he was a skilled man if they felt that his real trade did not fit any of the terms they could use or he had not qualified at that time.  Although its unusual, If his marriage was during the war its possible that his military role was not listed on the cert for a few reasons, maybe the registrar would/could only put down one occupation so he used his qualified trade.  His role in the pottery trade could also have been a reserved occupation.

 

I may be mis-reading it, but I believe @Davidnrvp was referring to the occupation of Norman Perrins that was given when his son born 1943 was married, (i.e. occupation of the father of the groom). So probably looking at 1960's at the earliest, (with my family history hat on :)

 

Journeyman does indeed usually mean a skilled man, but usually one who goes from job to job, like a sub-contractor, or does piece work, rather than having regular employment. Difficult to see how anything other than a self-employed potter could be a journeyman and sounds like it might financially be a bit precarious - although I may be lacking in imagination! Of course in such circumstances a steady income from serving in the pre-war Territorial Force, if that is where he started, might have been much needed.

 

But definately straying a long, long way from the Great War - I think we'd have to go back another generation for that.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites
travers61

Apologies, I had misread the post.

 

As my knowledge of the pottery Industry is sparse I can't say wether Journeymen in the pottery industry actually went from place to place, as they were in theory qualified to do.  But perhaps remained in the same works for longer periods of time, maybe as you say on piece work. I can't imagine a potter moving work place as often as every few days between all the pottery works, but as I say I have no specific knowledge of that industry.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Admin
12 hours ago, PRC said:

Of course in such circumstances a steady income from serving in the pre-war Territorial Force, if that is where he started, might have been much needed.

 

Yes, I read it as a TA man with a regular peacetime job as a potter.

 

12 hours ago, PRC said:

But definately straying a long, long way from the Great War - I think we'd have to go back another generation for that.

 

Indeed, If the WW2Talk link posted above cannot help, perhaps trying rootschat.com will.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • spof locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...