Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Quartermaster Sergeant badge?


Recommended Posts

I am hoping that someone better at uniforms and badges than myself (that will be most of you!) can say if the badge above this mans stripes denotes a QM Sgt. It would be really handy if it did.

Also, is there any significance in the strap between his second button and his pocket flap?

 

BillyH.

gwf.JPG.f11ffa34f9c10bc4a748b4283dcd1567.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Yep QMS with possibly a fob or pocket watch attached over the tunic button.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE

Company, Battery or Squadron Quarter-Master Sergeant, never just QMS, which latter was still the privilege of the battalion level appointments such as RQMS (assistant to commissioned QM) and ORQMS (assistant to Adjutant in Orderly Room).  Indeed, in the infantry the CQMS was never referred to directly by that title, but instead as ‘Colour Sergeant’ (although sometimes as the ‘Q-Bloke’ in vernacular third person).  In the Guards, especially Grenadiers, as ‘Pay Sergeant’ (and uniquely - ‘Sir’).

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for both of the replies. Much appreciated.

 

BillyH.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, BillyH said:

Thanks for both of the replies. Much appreciated.

 

BillyH.

Glad to help Billy, the badge above the three stripes is a small gilding metal crown.

88BEDDFE-7E1A-42E4-B07D-BAC2BF2490BB.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Unless he’s a Corporal of Horse...

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Unless he’s a Corporal of Horse...

Yes indeed...I thought trying to explain that might be a step too far!

Link to post
Share on other sites
mancpal

The strap leading to his breast pocket looks suspiciously like the leather one attached to a whistle. It also crossed my mind that attaching the whistle to the central button would mean the whistle would be less likely to be lost should the owner require something from his breast pocket and risk the strap unhooking. The 2nd button down  would also require a far shorter strap than one involving a breast pocket button. I reserve the right to admit I know very little about whistles and am similarly endowed with uniforms in general.

 

Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

or a CSM of infantry.until about June 1915.

Usually larger cloth crowns above 3-stripes on Colour Sergeants holding appointments of either CSM, or CQMS until June 1915, then the new badges kicked in with principally large gilding metal (GM) crowns (as opposed to cloth) for CSMs and the smaller GM crown for CQMS above cloth stripes.  Ergo as per the OPs photo.  Although cloth crown badges continued to be seen the metal pattern became by far the more commonplace.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
45 minutes ago, mancpal said:

The strap leading to his breast pocket looks suspiciously like the leather one attached to a whistle. It also crossed my mind that attaching the whistle to the central button would mean the whistle would be less likely to be lost should the owner require something from his breast pocket and risk the strap unhooking. The 2nd button down  would also require a far shorter strap than one involving a breast pocket button. I reserve the right to admit I know very little about whistles and am similarly endowed with uniforms in general.

 

Simon


Yes Simon I think you’re right that it’s the issue pattern leather fob that always came with the whistle.  On the stores inventory it’s listed as “whistle and fob”.

 

29F2AE64-BBA8-46CE-B9BE-715F7E15CA76.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
mancpal

I've got one belonging to my grandad (1917 Hudson) and the strap stood out. I've also got a 1915 Hudson though I can't recall the strap, that one belonged to a DCM winner.

Would the whistle strap have been designed for attachment to the 2nd button due to its convenient proximity to both breast pocket and mouth (without the need to crane ones neck) ?

 

Simon

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
4 hours ago, mancpal said:

I've got one belonging to my grandad (1917 Hudson) and the strap stood out. I've also got a 1915 Hudson though I can't recall the strap, that one belonged to a DCM winner.

Would the whistle strap have been designed for attachment to the 2nd button due to its convenient proximity to both breast pocket and mouth (without the need to crane ones neck) ?

 

Simon

 

I don’t know for certain if that was a deliberate design feature or an accident but on balance it seems quite possible Simon.  It certainly preceded the introduction of a jacket with external breast pockets, and so originally would have been fitted to a central button with the whistle in an internal pocket.

 

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
mancpal

To me it would make sense to have the whistle centrally hung but until an hour ago I admit I hadn't thought about the subject. The thought of a guardsmen in the heat of the moment trying to sound his (standard length issue) whistle and strap only to find that due to problems of scale his 2nd button down and the total length of said kit was woefully short of reaching his mouth, equally, are there any noted occurrences of a bantam soldier tripping over his standard length whistle and strap (whilst secured to 2nd button) and successfully securing a pension?

I've re-read the above and its time for bed.

 

Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
3 hours ago, mancpal said:

To me it would make sense to have the whistle centrally hung but until an hour ago I admit I hadn't thought about the subject. The thought of a guardsmen in the heat of the moment trying to sound his (standard length issue) whistle and strap only to find that due to problems of scale his 2nd button down and the total length of said kit was woefully short of reaching his mouth, equally, are there any noted occurrences of a bantam soldier tripping over his standard length whistle and strap (whilst secured to 2nd button) and successfully securing a pension?

I've re-read the above and its time for bed.

 

Simon

Although I take your point entirely it’s worth commenting that the fob was designed to secure the whistle in one place, but not necessarily so that it could be blown whilst still attached.  It would have been longer like a clasp knife lanyard if that was intended I think.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Muerrisch
11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Usually larger cloth crowns above 3-stripes on Colour Sergeants holding appointments of either CSM, or CQMS until June 1915, then the new badges kicked in with principally large gilding metal (GM) crowns (as opposed to cloth) for CSMs and the smaller GM crown for CQMS above cloth stripes.  Ergo as per the OPs photo.  Although cloth crown badges continued to be seen the metal pattern became by far the more commonplace.

 

The last Priced Vocab before the war was in 1913, the year when the early moves to the 4-company organisation were made, thus splitting colour sergeants into CSM or CQMS. The only official issues for service dress were:

 

Greatcoat [all greatcoat badges were large size] in worsted, item 1886 @ 5 1/4d

crowns, gilding metal, with plate and pin, service dress item 1867 @ 1/2d 

 

PVCN made no change in 1915

 

If there is evidence of official issue of large worsted or gilding metal crowns for the service dress jacket I would welcome it

 

Ever since the introduction of service dress it seems from photographic evidence that sergeant-majors in particular favoured placing the worsted greatcoat badge on the jacket

Colour sergeants with the large worsted badge often appear in portraits.

 

Turning to Clothing Regulations 1914, a crown badge is a crown badge is a crown badge, with no size or materials distinction regarding the various ranks and appointments.

 

There does not appear to be any systematic adoption of a distinction between the newly appointed CSM and the newly appointed CQMS, they should all have continued to wear the generic gilding metal crown above three chevrons. Units and individuals might have put up a large worsted crown over the chevrons [there was not an official large gilding metal crown], and possibly Commanding Officers might wish to make the CSM/CQMS distinction obvious. It would be interesting to see facts on this.

 

CSM Barter VC, RWF, was picturesdat Buckingham Palace receiving his VC wearing chevrons and small gilding metal crown, as per regulation.

 

In any case, the period of possible confusion was brief, ending in May/June 1915 when the CSM became a WO Class II and adopted the crown on the lower arm. Officially, it should have been gilding metal. Often it was the large greatcoat worsted badge.

 

As to existence of small worsted crowns, or large gilding metal crowns, yes, undoubtedly, from photographs, but they were probably private or unit purchase.

 

In modern times, the Household cavalry do indeed use the cloth/ metal difference to distinguish between Lance Corporal of Horse and Corporal of Horse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE

PVCNs are useful for showing supply chain nomenclature and issues, but I don’t think it serves any purpose to simply repeat them over and over again.  For the most part contemporary photographs speak for themselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Muerrisch
2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

PVCNs are useful for showing supply chain nomenclature and issues, but I don’t think it serves any purpose to simply repeat them over and over again.  For the most part contemporary photographs speak for themselves.

 

I am not sure if  there is agreement here that the small worsted crowns and large gilding metal crowns mentioned were not official issue.

If there is evidence of official issue of them for the service dress jacket I would welcome it.

There are relatively inexperienced members of the Forum who might find the fact of interest.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
9 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I am not sure if  there is agreement here that the small worsted crowns and large gilding metal crowns mentioned were not official issue.

If there is evidence of official issue of them for the service dress jacket I would welcome it.

There are relatively inexperienced members of the Forum who might find the fact of interest.

 

 

I don’t know about the small worsted crowns, they seem to appear belatedly and inconsistently after 1915 (gilding metal by far the more common).  The larger gilding metal crown seems far more common, but I cannot be specific as regards it’s status as an issue item.  In truth I’m reluctant to get overly exercised about it, as I did not want to confuse the original inquirer by digressing from what had seemed a relatively simple query.  Although the likes of you and I, along with a few others of similar bent are interested in such detail, the vast majority without great background knowledge just want a simple answer that they can understand.  It just seems more important to me personally to try and assist them with that and perhaps stimulate an interest to research further.  It’s very easy to baffle newcomers with unnecessary detail so early on in their journey towards understanding.  I feel we should perhaps seek to avoid that in queries such as in this thread.  No offence is meant though.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...