adrian 1008 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 Following on from church yesterday, I got chatting to one of the parishioners and somehow we got onto the subject of her Grandfather, she has always wanted to know about his WW1 service, she can recall he went to France early in the war having previously served in a Territorial Unit. He came back from France in 1917 as a CSM/RSM and joined a Unit running an OTC at a Grammer School ?? My research so far has found the following , but it doesnt fit with her recollection, perhaps hazy with the mists of time, she feels sure he joined the Westminster Rifles, and went to France at the very start Colleagues help would be appreciated Henry William Brooks B 26/12/1884 Lived in Peckham ?? Service No 595966 Married Florence May Millar 07/1906 they had 5 children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 (edited) The above soldier was granted the freedom of city of london in 1918. In that doc he is described as London Irish Rifles which were the 18th Londons. The Westminsters were the 16th I believe Henry William married Florence Annie Mary Miller at the Holy Trinity Church 5/8/06. Ancestry have the entry on the local register. People with those names appear on the electoral register in 1921 at 8 Carlton Grove - and well into the 1930s. So this appears to confirm the soldier's records are the right man, The army numbering blog would suggest enlistment some time in 1909 https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2008/11/18th-county-of-london-battalion-london.html Note the statement "When the Territorial Force renumbered in 1917, the 18th Londons did so within the range 590001 to 610000."so 595966 fits in. The medal roll shows overseas 9/3/15 to 5/2/16 Edited 3 May , 2021 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 3 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2021 Thank you Mark, Is there any reason for the freedom award thats a very helpful piece of information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 Still editing previous post - see dates overseas No reason given for freedom of city. Record on ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 (edited) The unit war diary is at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354562 No charge if you create a free account. Unlikely to mention him by name but will give you an idea where they were. You have the dates overseas from medal roll, They were at Loos Sept 1915. Edited 3 May , 2021 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 3 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2021 Thank you i ve downloaded it. I wonder why he came back after less than 1 year, his grand daughter did not mention any injury, and he lived to a ripe old age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 The Medal Roll shows he served in France from 9 Mar 1915 to 5 Feb 1916. If you look at the page, all 9 men on it are shown as leaving the war zone at that time And the Star is with 18th London Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 24 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said: I wonder why he came back after less than 1 year, his grand daughter did not mention any injury, and he lived to a ripe old age This pension card looks like it is at point of transfer to Army Z Reserve. For a CSM [A.WO1] a pension of 8/0 pw in 1920 suggest to me a very minor level of disability. Hopefully @ss002d6252will be able to enlighten us as to the approx. percentage disability so defined. How long it actually lasted is not clear here [typically pensions were initially conditional before being made final] - unfortunately his full pension file is now long lost/probably destroyed. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 8s per week is less than than minimum for a CSM - a 8s p/w pension would be a 20% disability for a private. A CSM would be either a Class 2 or a Class 1 pension (probably Class 2) which would be 10s per week or 10s 8d, respectively. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: 8s per week is less than than minimum for a CSM - a 8s p/w pension would be a 20% disability for a private. A CSM would be either a Class 2 or a Class 1 pension (probably Class 2) which would be 10s per week or 10s 8d, respectively. Thanks for replying - it had me puzzled. Any speculation as to why 8/- pw? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 3 May , 2021 Share Posted 3 May , 2021 (edited) He had a few years in the TF before WW1, as 1914/15 Star Roll shows he disembarked in France as a CSM and finished the war as Acting RSM/WO1 & his regimental number of 632 in 18th London's was issued between 20.1.1909 & 11.4.1910. 221 joined on 7th April 1908 402 joined on 20th January 1909 1043 joined on 11th April 1910 1154 joined on 3rd June 1912 https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2008/11/18th-county-of-london-battalion-london.html Although his number was issued about a year after the TF was created, perhaps he had had some previous military service which made him a candidate for the CSM role by 1915. Edited 3 May , 2021 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 4 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2021 Further "light interogation" of the grand daughter suggests he may have joined up with his younger brother Frederick Brooks who was a postman. His (Fredericks) attestation (From Ancestry) shows Feb 1909, which fits with colleagues above. I am still mystified as to a relatively short service in France. Btn diaries have the Btn being stood down on 5th Feb 16, the day Henry and 8 others leave France. No evidence of injury, no disciplinary matter. Would he have returned home to undergo Officer training ? But he next appears in 1917 as part of a training Btn of the London Irish and in Sept 18 is awarded the freedom of the City of London apparently for being an RSM in the London Irish Rifles Colleagues expertise and thoughts as ever appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 4 May , 2021 Share Posted 4 May , 2021 (edited) Could be he was not quite A1 on med fitness and it was decided he was more use at home. Might be worth looking at the others sent home on 5/2/16. If any have surviving papers it might indicate a common theme. edit New theory: Expiration of TF service See Augustus Sibbald. 664. He enlisted in TF 20 Feb 1909 number 664 . Extended in 1913 etc. Was discharged 2 weeks after his return on 22/2/16 on "temination of engagement". Denis Fitzpatrick 617 enlisted 18/2/1909. Extended 1913 etc. Discharged termination of engagement 21/2/16, Returned to UK wounded in Oct 1915. George Hewlett 437 enlisted 9/2/1909. As above. Returned to UK 16/2/16. Discharged TofE 3/3/16 These 3 men are on same medal roll page. All have surviving docs. All at approx 7 years service from date of joining. I think we have a pretty certain cause for his return. The 18th were sending their TofEs home. So did Brooks stay on but only as a Home Soldier? Looks like he enlisted 18-20 Feb 1909 Fitzpatrick ended up as a CSM before discharge but declared no previous service in 1909. Edited 4 May , 2021 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 4 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2021 I think you ve hit the nail on the head. Thank you He s time expired on his voluntary service, joining in Feb 1909 so has returned home. He has 3 children and a wife at home so volunteers again for home service and is posted to 15th London Regiment as an Instructor, re mustering with a new number of 595966 .He is appointed RSM and Acting WO. His grand daughter recollects him being on the staff of Wilsons Grammer School OTC in Camberwell, where he remains until 1919. In 1939 he volunteers again and is an instructor with the Home Guard Now how does the freedom of the City link !! ?? I ve not seen this before, but am a very junior sleuth ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 5 May , 2021 Share Posted 5 May , 2021 No expert on Freedom of the City. Sorry. May be worth finding who currently awards this and see what they have to say This site seems to be relevant https://www.guild-freemen-london.co.uk/freedom-of-the-city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 5 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2021 thank you Mark, again very helpful, I have emailed the clerk to see what is available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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