Thomas Lane-i/c mule trains gallipoli

[chris marshall]

born,lived in royton,oldham ,lancs

how would i find which regiment(east lancs/manchester etc....) he was in?-presume these from home area

point in direction please

no service number

just have birth and death dates

thank you -a newbie!

chris marshall

1 may 2021

[ss002d6252]

55 minutes ago, chris marshall said:

just have birth and death dates

Which are ?

 

Quote

how would i find which regiment(east lancs/manchester etc....) he was in?-presume these from home area

There's no guarantee it was from his own area. Ultimately a man would end up where the army sent him.

 

Craig

[chris marshall]

7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Which are ?

 

There's no guarantee it was from his own area. Ultimately a man would end up where the army sent him.

 

Craig

thank you

birth 5 may 1887

death 10 january 1981

[DavidOwen]

Still far too many options, any other family details?

 

What makes you think he was i/c of a mule train? It all helps....

[PRC]

4 hours ago, chris marshall said:

birth 5 may 1887

 

5 hours ago, chris marshall said:

born,lived in royton,oldham ,lancs

 

Someone born in Royton at that time would have had their birth registered with the Civil Authorities in the Oldham District. You have 42 days after the event to register the birth, and the civil birth indexes go by quarter registered. A child born on the 5th May 1887 should be registered in the April to June quarter, (Q2) 1887.

 

Unfortunately no Thomas Lane’s recorded in that District in that quarter or the next.

 

In the whole of England & Wales there are just four Thomas Lane's whose birth was registered in that quarter.

Thomas, Macclesfield District of Cheshire, mothers’ maiden name Cunniffe.

Thomas, Bury District of Lancashire, mothers’ maiden name Stott.

Thomas, Ross District of Herefordshire, mothers’ maiden name Bright.Most likely death registered same District and quarter, aged under 1.

Thomas Frank, Upton on Severn District of Worcestershire, mothers’ maiden name Chadd.

Of course there is no absolute guarantee that his birth was registered or that he was registered with surname Lane or even forename Thomas.

 

No obvious Thomas Lane with a birth circa 1887 and with a Royton connection in the subsequent 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses of England & Wales. In fact the only partial match is a John Thomas Lane born circa 1878.

 

There is no Thomas Lane born c1887, (plus\minus 2 years) associated with Royton or Oldham on the 1939 Register, a mini-census taken following the outbreak of war.

 

4 hours ago, chris marshall said:

death 10 january 1981

 

The Thomas Lane born 5th May 1887, who death was registered in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1981 died in the Blackpool & Fylde District of Lancashire. No obvious civil probate so can’t confirm exact date of death of whether he was normally resident elsewhere.

 

Is the date of birth you have for him coming from that death registration? Unless something with a verified date of birth is returned to the Registrar, (UK passport \ driving licence) or a birth certificate is shown, that date of birth is simply what the informant believed it to be.

 

There are all sorts of reasons why what you are saying may essentially be true but it isn’t being borne out by the usual sources at the moment.

 

But probably best to get him pinned down in the family tree before looking for a military history side.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit and welcome to the forum

Edited 1 May , 2021 by PRC
Typos

[charlie962]

There is a 23 year old Thomas Lane in the 1911 Census for 7, Cherry Row, Royton, son of Walter and Elizabeth Alice. Cotton Mill Spinner. born Radcliffe.

1939 Register has him as born 05/05/1888, living with his wife Bertha at 129 Burnley Lane, Chadderton. Nightwatchman at a Cotton Mill

1901 Census Chadderton and 1891 Census ditto.

 

I note he had an older sister Mary Eliz born Royton.

 

Could this be the man. Birth 1888 not 1887 ?

 

Edit-Edit         Possible marriage 1911 to Bertha Smith at Oldham. crossed out because his father named Robert ? But now see that Robert was father in 1891 Census then Walter is head in 1901 and 1911 Census. I presume Robert died between 1891 and 1901. Perhaps Walter was Robert's brother.

Edited 2 May , 2021 by charlie962

[PRC]

On 03/05/2021 at 00:20, charlie962 said:

There is a 23 year old Thomas Lane in the 1911 Census for 7, Cherry Row, Royton, son of Walter and Elizabeth Alice. Cotton Mill Spinner. born Radcliffe.

 

Thanks @charlie962 for checking. I was beginning to think I was going mad, when I saw your post as I tried again but still came up with nothing. The declaration is signed 7 Cherry Row, Royton, but the enumerators have indexed it as 7 Cherry Row, Chadderton - well at least that's what Genes Reunited says . Both are in the Oldham Civil Registration District.

 

On 03/05/2021 at 00:20, charlie962 said:

But now see that Robert was father in 1891 Census then Walter is head in 1901 and 1911 Census. I presume Robert died between 1891 and 1901. Perhaps Walter was Robert's brother.

 

Thomas is 23 and relationship to the head of the family, (Walter), is shown as son on the 1911 Census. However Walter and Elixabeth Alice have only been married 19 years. The most likely marriage was that of a Walter Lane to an Elizabeth Alice Lane which was recorded in the Oldham District in Q2 1892. But the marriage certificate shows Elizabeth as a Spinster.

 

 

(Inage courtesy familysearch). https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNMX-VY2

The 1911 Census shows Walter as 44, working as a Labourer at a Bleachworks and Elizabeth Alice as 45, so potentially tieing in with the details on the marriage certificate.

Walter is shown on the census as born Chadderton, and Elizabeth Alice is born Liverpool.

 

On the 1891 Census the 3 year old Thomas Lane, born Radcliffe, was recorded living at 5, Royley Clough, Chadderton. He lives there with parents Robert, (aged 29, a Coal Miner, born Chadderton) and Elizabeth A., (aged 24 and born Liverpool).

 

Looking for a marriage of a Robert Lane to an Elizabeth Alice in England & Wales throws up a bit of an anomaly - a Robert Lane married an Elizabeth Alice Stott in the Oldham District in Q4 1882. If that is the same woman as on the later census and marriage certificates, then she would have been barely 16. But looking for the children of the marriage of Walter and Elizabeth recorded living with them on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, I can find matching birth registrations with the mothers' maiden name Stott - plus of course one not in the Oldham District but it was registered in Q2 1887.

 

On 02/05/2021 at 05:08, PRC said:

Thomas, Bury District of Lancashire, mothers’ maiden name Stott.

 

So possibly Elizabeth Alice "lied" about her marital status and her fathers' surname in order to be able to marry again in church.

 

Still can't see any likely service records for Thomas.

 

Hopefully OP will return and give some more concrete information to go on.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[aim]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Thanks @charlie962 for checking. I was beginning to think I was going mad, when I saw your post as I tried again but still came up with nothing. The declaration is signed 7 Cherry Row, Royton, but the enumerators have indexed it as 7 Cherry Row, Chadderton - well at least that's what Genes Reunited says . Both are in the Oldham Civil Registration District.

 

 

 

Peter

I thought I would look up Cherry Road, but I couldn't find it. Royton and Chadderton are about two miles apart in the southwest Oldham area. Two organisations which might help are:

 

Chadderton Historical Society

 

Royton Local History Society

 

aim

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, aim said:

I thought I would look up Cherry Road, but I couldn't find it.

 Possibly because it's Cherry Row.

 

A quick google search brought up this on the Chadderton Historical Society calendar of events for 2017.

 

6th July:                           Local History Ramble:
                                            Retracing the Deluge

On 11th July 1927, a violent summer storm, followed by a disastrous flood, caused chaos in the low-lying areas along the River Irk Valley. This evening recall the deluge of ninety years ago as we retrace the route along which the torrent raged, devastating homes and bringing misery in its wake.

We start in Streetbridge, at Cherry Row bridge, on which a lady was standing as it collapsed beneath the raging waters.  Continuing into Chadderton Fold we see the monument to the flood, learn about the effects of the deluge there, and see how the river was subsequently controlled. Finally, we walk alongside the Irk to where it passes under the Rochdale Canal, and learn about the final incident of the disaster as the canal broke through its banks at Mills Hill.

http://www.chadderton-historical-society.org.uk/programmes of events 2001 todate.htm

(My highlight).

 

The Lancashire Online Parish Clerk Project on it's page for baptisms at Chadderton in the 1854 - 1862 has three where the family live at Cherry Row.

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Oldham/Chadderton/stmatthew/baptisms_1854-1862.html

 

Checking out entries for "Cherry Row Chadderton" on the 1911 Census, the Armfield family give their address as "9 Cherry Row, Streetbridge, (Royton), Chadderton".

The Dronsfield family, who the census enumerator records as living at 8 Cherry Row, Chadderton, have signed the declaration as "8 Streetbridge, Royton, Lancashire".

The Hall fanily, who the enumerator records as living at 10 Cherry Row, Streetbridge, Chadderton, have signed the declaration as "10 Streetbridge, Royton"

I could go on, but there seems to be a pattern.

 

According to Google maps Streetbridge is now part of the B6195 which appears to connect Chadderton to Royton.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

If he was working with mules in Gallipoli  , then I think the implication is that he was with the ASC (correct me if I am wrong)

 

I must confess that got me no closer to finding him in records !

 

Unless @chris marshall can give us bit more input, I cannot see the thing progressing

[michaeldr]

9 minutes ago, corisande said:

If he was working with mules in Gallipoli  , then I think the implication is that he was with the ASC 

 

There may have been exceptions, however my impression is that the mules used on Gallipoli were either serving with the Zion Mule Corps or with one of the Indian Mule Corps.

As such, the ref to mules may be a bit of a red herring, and I would suggest concentrating on the man's family, birth, address details etc etc to try and identify with whom he was serving, when & where.

[chris marshall]

dear all

many thanks for all the information you have posted-appreciated

 

I have gone back into my records and follows

1.certified copy of an entry of birth for thomas lane-registration district of bury lancashire; -county of lancaster

sub district of radcliffe-registered sixteenth june 1887

born 5 may 1887 at 2 holland street radcliffe

father robert lane-coal miner

mother elizabeth alice lane/stott

2.marriage/certified copy

august 11th 1911

thomas lane 24 spinner address 13 rhodes street father robert lane(deceased)-collier

bertha smith 21 card room hand 13 rhodes street fatherjohn smith(deceased)iron worker

marriage at st stephens church oldham

walter lane on certificate as father crossed out-reason was his father was robert lane and when robert died about one year later elizabeth alice lane w/the widow married walter lane a brother of robert.So walter was the stepfather not father-mistake

3.certified copy of death certificate

10th january 1981 victoria hospital blackpool

date and place of birth down as royton 5th may 1887

 

My maternal grandfather-thomas lane talked about 2 events when he was at Gallipoli

1.landing on the beach/lancashire landings?? he was running up for cover shouting to the soldier next to him,then ran on and moments later looked across to him and the chap had had his head blown off by a cannon ball-the turks were firing everything

2.he told me he was i/c involved with the mules re supplies

one day there was a shortage of "runners" and he was told to take a message down the line

he replied that he did not know the area but was told to do it!

he got lost and was come across by a troop of australian cavalry

the officer i/c said what are you doing here?-your uniform is not for any soldier in this area

my gfather replied that he was a first time runner and got lost

the aussie  replied that i don't believe-i think you are a spy

my gf had complete white hair and piercing blue eyes-most turks were swarthy but some were a "boris johnson type"

the officer then added that if you do not know the password of the day then i am going to shoot you

my gf did! but always said he was sure the aussie would have shot him-they did not mess about

so 2 lucky escapes and lived to 94

 

i have no records of his military record and am trying to find out

my guess from his birth and home/living in royton oldham area he would have been in a lancashire territorial unit

i apologise if you are not meant to put a lot of ionfo on a post-please advise

any pointers to finding out the military info appreciated

i have been told that a lot of ww1 records were destroyed in ww2

chris marshall

 

 

[michaeldr]

one day there was a shortage of "runners" and he was told to take a message down the line he replied that he did not know the area but was told to do it! he got lost and was come across by a troop of australian cavalry

 

This could be a reference to the Second Battle of Krithia (6th-8th May 1915) when two brigades were brought down to Helles from Anzac to help strengthen the Allied forces there. These were the 2nd Australian Brigade and the New Zealand Brigade. The Australian force had no cavalry, but was made up of the 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th Battalions and he may have run into one of them.

[jay dubaya]

I don’t have access but has anyone checked the Oldham AVL?

[michaeldr]

British infantry troops serving in that same battle (Second Krithia) were:

 

2/South Wales Borderers

1/Kings Own Scottish Borderers

1/Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

1/ Border Regiment

'Dubsters' (the combined remnants of the RDF & the RMF)

4/Worcesters

2/Hampshires

1/Essex

2/Royal Fusiliers

1/5^th Royal Scots

1/Lancashire Fusiliers

1/5th Lancs Fus. }

1/6th Lancs Fus. }EDIT: Unlikely to be involved in this story as fighting

1/7th Lancs Fus. }on Gully Spur & not next to Australians

1/8th Lancs Fus. }

 

 

Other British infantry troops involved included the part of the Royal Naval Division:

Hood Battalion

Howe       ''

Anson      ''

Drake       ''

Plymouth Battalion, RMLI

 

Other British units taking part were:

Artillery,

2 Field Companies RE

29^th Divisional Cyclist Coy

29^th Divisional Signal Coy

Motor Machine Gun Squadron, RNACD

RND Cyclist Coy.

2 Field Companies RND

RND Signal Coy.

Machine Gun Detachment

Edited 3 May , 2021 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Please NOTE: this is only my speculation

 

The Australians were with the 'Composite Division' on Krithia Spur. To their left were the NZ.

To their right were the French. Also in the 'Composite Division' were the 1/Lancs Fuf.

 

From WO95/4310 - 1/Lancashire Fusiliers War Diary

8^th May 1815, 5.30pm:- Australians passed our line and attacked in direction of enemy's line of trenches.

Left ½ Bn. Lan Fus advanced with Australians. Right ½ Bn. remained in support in trenches

9 May 1915:- Left ½ Bn. Rejoined and occupied 2^nd line trenches

 

I can easily imagine a runner from the 1/Lancs Fus. getting mixed up with Australians in a situation like this.

 

 

[chris marshall]

many thanks michaeldr

interesting speculation

i am searching other avenues

appreciate everyone's assistance

b r

chris m

[PRC]

8 hours ago, chris marshall said:

bertha smith 21 card room hand 13 rhodes street fatherjohn smith(deceased)iron worker

 

8 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

I don’t have access but has anyone checked the Oldham AVL?

 

I believe Bertha would have been too young to qualify for the vote in 1918 & 1919 – her address would give you some idea if you had found the right Thomas Lane on the Absent Voters List as that should be his address as well.

 

However the 1921 Electoral Register for the Parish of Chadderton does have a Thomas Lane and a Bertha Lane recorded at 9 Streetbridge. The 1918 Oldham Absent Voters List therefore looks a snip at £4.25 as a possible way to identify his unit.

 

A search of the Oldham Civil Registration District for children registered  between the start of 1914 and the end of 1919 with the surname Lane, mothers’ maiden name Smith, brings up only one match – a Bertha Lane, birth registered in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1914. If the Thomas being sought for was her father and went out to Gallipoli there must be a good chance that he was already serving at that point, and so fathers’ occupation on the birth certificate may give more details about his unit.

 

If he was serving with the Lancashire Fusiliers it doesn’t look like there is a matching MiC – the only Thomas Lane has a middle initial  “G”, service number 21541 and only qualified for the Victory Medal & British War Medal.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Sorry not on subject but this came up when checking another soldier on Gallipoli.

 

EVANS    Reginald Bennett    37    Pte    03 LHR    RHQ (Dvr) att rear Dtls 5-15 Tos A Sqn 8-15 WIA 28-11-15 crutch accident kicked by mule to testicles near Destroyer Hill evac to hosp Egypt 12-15 (G) att APostC 1 Div HQ 12-15 RTA neurasthenia disch 24-7-16 MU (10 IR CMF 2 years)
 

Part of the danger of working with animals, I feel for him

 

S.B

Edited 3 May , 2021 by stevebecker

[charlie962]

Very difficult searching because Lanc gets read as Lane by OCR thus lots of spurious hits

 

What about  (although does not match address and o'seas date does not fit with Krithia. (3) = Egypt but we know how vague that was for accuracy and reinforcements often went via Egypt)

 

53910 Thomas Lane, Driver RE

Overseas 29/6/15 (3) ,   To Army Z Reserve 28/5/19

14/15 Star BWM VM

Absent Voters Oldham- 4 Court Horsedge St , St Mary's Ward;   Pte 13th Batt Sig Co RE

Edited 4 May , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

There's an Oldham Historical Research Group who have done a lot of work on WW1 associated men. It would be worth contacting them.

[jay dubaya]

There are also two Thomas Lane's RFA both  Drivers and both awarded a Star, theatre marked as (3) - Egypt

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Pte 13th Batt Sig Co RE

If that was meant to be 13th Divisional Signal Co RE then they landed Gallipoli- Anzac Cove c 3/8/15. The Division included the 38th Bde, full of Lancashire Battalions.

So that would be a good fit with the family stories.

 

LongLongTrail summarises here

1915

On 7 June 1915, orders were received to prepare to move to the Mediterranean. All mechanical transport was withdrawn and the first reinforcement drafts were ordered not to sail (other than those for the artillery, end RE Companies).

13 June 1915 : first transports left port, and sailed to Alexandria. By 4 July, all units had moved to Mudros, preparatory for landing at Gallipoli. Between 6-16 July 1915 the Divisional infantry landed on Cape Helles and relieved 29th Division. They left and returned to Mudros at the end of the month, and the entire Division landed at ANZAC Cove between 3-5 August 1915.

The Division took part in the following actions on Gallipoli:

• The Battle of Sari Bair, 6-10 August 1915
• The Battle of Russell’s Top, 7 August
• The Battle of Hill 60, ANZAC, 27-28 August

Soon afterwards the Division was transferred from ANZAC to Suvla Bay. It was evacuated from Suvla 19-20 December 1915, whereupon the infantry moved after a weeks rest to the Helles bridgehead.

Edited 4 May , 2021 by charlie962

[jay dubaya]

Certainly appears to be a most likely candidate.

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Certainly appears to be a most likely candidate.

Your pointer to the AVLs was a v helpful guide. Findmypast also appears to have them.  I note that a few Lane surnames appeared in 1911 Census and 1861 Census for Horsedge Rd but are they related ? Not an uncommon name and there is even a Robert Lane, miner, in the 1861 Census but seeming too old to be the father of Thomas.

 

Charlie

Edited 4 May , 2021 by charlie962