1/14 London ( London Scottish)

[Tonyb]

Taken in late 1917 or1918. The officer on the left is my grandfather, Lt L.B. Burtt MC. He was in the 1/15 Londons, PWO Civil Service Rifles until seconded/ temporary duty to the 1/14. I think he was the Bn transport officer due to his experience with military animals from his time in Imperial Yeomanry in S Africa War, and his TA time with Surrey Yeomanry. He returned to 1/15 in Dec 1918.
I am interested in the officer on the right, and any guesses where and when.

Tony

 

[FROGSMILE]

He is a Territorial Force officer with miniature T beneath his thistle collar badges.  The unit is London Scottish as you say.  They are all equipped with the 1903 pattern leather bandolier equipment.  They appear to be at a training camp or billet in an operational rear area with window shrouds to obscure light at night and avoid bombing.  There are overseas service stripes but no wound stripes or medal ribbons apparent, apart from the officer you are interested in, who I think might have a MC.  A number of men have leather gaiters in place of puttees which is relatively unusual, but might be connected with the transport section.  The older men and general appearance certainly chimes with a second line unit. A date of 1918 seems a good bet given that the overseas service stripes were first authorised in December of the preceding year.  In June 1918 the unit was at Audruicq in France (having arrived from Salonika) and 6-months later at Avelghem, SE of Courtrai, in Belgium.  
 

Looking at the entire scene and considering all the factors mentioned I think this is probably a photo of the battalion’s entire transport section.  Your officer of interest would then probably be the quartermaster, who usually billeted or bivouacked at the same location as the transport officer.  The transport men were vital to the QM as along with the units horsepower they maintained and drove all the GS wagons bearing the battalion’s stores, as well as the water carts, field kitchens and each company’s reserve ammunition limbers (aka caissons).

 

NB.  Your grandfather is still wearing ball buttons from one of his previous units.  These were favoured by units that styled their dress after that of the KRRC.

 

 

 

 

[Tonyb]

Thanks, Frogsmile, however this group is 1st Bn. It was 2nd Bn that went to Middle East and returned in July 1918. 1/14 were in 56 Div diversionary assault near Gommecourt on July 1, 1916 and remained in 168 Bde on Western Front throughout the war. Side note, according to their war diary, they lost 22 officers and approx 550 ncos and men on 1st July. Grandpa got his MC at  Tadpole Copse during Cambrai. 

[PRC]

On 02/05/2021 at 00:31, Tonyb said:

Grandpa got his MC at  Tadpole Copse during Cambrai. 

 

The Military Cross for Lieutenant Lawrence Buckley Burtt, London Regiment, was not Gazetted until the 3rd June 1918, so he should not have been wearing the ribbon until then at the earliest. Conversely the absence of a ribbon almost certainly places the picture as having been taken before that date.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30716/supplement/6464/data.pdf

 

The June 1918 British Army List shows the Quartermaster of the 1/14th as Honorary Captain W.E. Webb, D.S.O., with seniority from the 21st May 1914. There is a reference to retired pay.

(Column 1608b).

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103564394

@FROGSMILE - could the medal ribbon your eagle eye spotted be that for the DSO?

 

There is a Medal Index Card for a Quartermaster Captain Walter Edward Webb, London Regiment who finished the war as Lieutenant Colonel & Quartermaster "London Scottish Rifles".

 

(Edit - image courtesy Ancestry).

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

[Steven Broomfield]

I've contacted our Regimental Archivist; he thinks the face is familiar but can't place it. He said he'll check it when he is in the office on Tuesday.

[Steven Broomfield]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 In June 1918 the unit was at Audruicq in France (having arrived from Salonika)

 

 

2nd/14th returned from Palestine, where they had been serving (as part of the 6th (2nd/2nd London) Division). They had been in Salonika, but service in the Middle East intervened. They had, like the rest of the division, quite a peripatetic war.

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Tonyb said:

Thanks, Frogsmile, however this group is 1st Bn. It was 2nd Bn that went to Middle East and returned in July 1918. 1/14 were in 56 Div diversionary assault near Gommecourt on July 1, 1916 and remained in 168 Bde on Western Front throughout the war. Side note, according to their war diary, they lost 22 officers and approx 550 ncos and men on 1st July. Grandpa got his MC at  Tadpole Copse during Cambrai. 

Apologies Tony, I somehow misread your very clear thread title (I put it down to advancing age).  The likely date is unchanged so you would need to look at the battalion’s war diary for 1918 to narrow down a likely location.  The men look relaxed so I think it’s probably after the onset of the Battle of Amiens.

[FROGSMILE]

On 02/05/2021 at 00:58, PRC said:

 

The Military Cross for Lieutenant Lawrence Buckley Burtt, London Regiment, was not Gazetted until the 3rd June 1918, so he should not have been wearing the ribbon until then at the earliest. Conversely the absence of a ribbon almost certainly places the picture as having been taken before that date.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30716/supplement/6464/data.pdf

 

The June 1918 British Army List shows the Quartermaster of the 1/14th as Honorary Captain W.E. Webb, D.S.O., with seniority from the 21st May 1914. There is a reference to retired pay.

(Column 1608b).

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103564394

@FROGSMILE - could the medal ribbon your eagle eye spotted be that for the DSO?

 

There is a Medal Index Card for a Quartermaster Captain Walter Edward Webb, London Regiment who finished the war as Lieutenant Colonel & Quartermaster "London Scottish Rifles".

 

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

The medal ribbon for the DSO was crimson and blue, Peter, so I don’t think that’s what we can see standing out so clearly in the OP photo.  Given the 1918 period it’s perhaps then more likely to be an early issued example of the 1914 Star, something a quartermaster with his implied length of service was quite likely to be a recipient of.  It also fits with Webb’s medal index card that you’ve kindly provided.

 

[Tonyb]

You note the T under the lapel thistle on suspected QM, is there a reason grandpa does not appear to have the T? Suspected QM’s medal ribbon seems very bright for DSO, but light plays funny tricks in old photos. T

 

[Chris_Baker]

At least one of the men wears four overseas service chevrons.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

2nd/14th returned from Palestine, where they had been serving (as part of the 6th (2nd/2nd London) Division). They had been in Salonika, but service in the Middle East intervened. They had, like the rest of the division, quite a peripatetic war.

Thank you Steven, yes I was aware of the trip to Egypt and the stop off at Marseilles enroute to France from Brig James’s work, but as it was such a brief sojourn and didn’t seem material to either the main theatres of war of 2/14th, or the photo I didn’t mention it.

[PRC]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

something a quartermaster with his implied length of service was quite likely to be a recipient of.

 

MiC shows him in France from the 15th September 1914 - i.e. the original deployment of the Battalion overseas. And as quartermaster, (if that indeed was what he was), he would have priority access to the ribbon stock that was to be issued Still does pre June 1918 seem a bit early for him to be wearing it?

Presumably there could be others similarly entitled amongst the group, but either the bandoliers or the angles at which they are posed have obscured the ribbons.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

At least one of the men wears four overseas service chevrons.

Yes I saw him too Chris, 4th from left in 2nd row.  The left hand man of the frontmost two also has four.

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

MiC shows him in France from the 15th September 1914 - i.e. the original deployment of the Battalion overseas. And as quartermaster, (if that indeed was what he was), he would have priority access to the ribbon stock that was to be issued Still does pre June 1918 seem a bit early for him to be wearing it?

Presumably there could be others similarly entitled amongst the group, but either the bandoliers or the angles at which they are posed have obscured the ribbons.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Your guess is as good as mine as to why him and not the others Peter, but being QM would be a good answer, as you have rightly surmised.  I can’t be 100% positive it is the QM, but he’s by far the most likely given how physically close to the transport he usually was.  They were pivotal to his role.  There are lots of threads covering the timeline of the 1914 Star’s issue.

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[clk]

Hi Tony,

 

On 01/05/2021 at 17:17, FROGSMILE said:

Your officer of interest would then probably be the quartermaster,

 

If you were be the case, and you can date the photo then you might be able to end up with a name from the Army Lists. For example in the December 1919 list under the 14th Battalion, it shows:

 

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

The lists are free to view/download from the National Library of Scotland - link

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: I should have read Peter's earlier post properly. Sorry 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Tony,

 

 

If you were be the case, and you can date the photo then you might be able to end up with a name from the Army Lists. For example in the December 1919 list under the 14th Battalion, it shows:

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

The lists are free to view/download from the National Library of Scotland - link

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: I should have read Peter's earlier post properly. Sorry 

No problem Chris, many hands make for light work.  They also corroborate matters 👍

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

The man seated at the front, second from the left, looks to be wearing the ribbon of the 1914 star and has a full set of overseas service chevrons including the 1914 red one. Going by their generally cheerful looking appearance I would suggest the photo dates from after the armistice.   Pete.

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The man seated at the front, second from the left, looks to be wearing the ribbon of the 1914 star and has a full set of overseas service chevrons including the 1914 red one. Going by their generally cheerful looking appearance I would suggest the photo dates from after the armistice.   Pete.

 

Good spot of that second 14 Star Pete, now that you’ve drawn my attention to it I can see his 14 red overseas stripe even on my phone.  I’d thought they looked quite cheerful too and agree it’s possibly after the Armistice, although it could be during the last 100-days when many could apparently sense a victorious momentum too.

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Steven, yes I was aware of the trip to Egypt and the stop off at Marseilles enroute to France from Brig James’s work, but as it was such a brief sojourn and didn’t seem material to either the main theatres of war of 2/14th, or the photo I didn’t mention it.

 

They spent quite a while fighting in Palestine. Two VCs (Cruickshank and Train) were gained there.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

They spent quite a while fighting in Palestine. Two VCs (Cruickshank and Train) were gained there.

Arrived Alexandria 3 July 1917, then to France May 1918.  Less than a year in theatre, but just as you say enough time to earn two VCs.  Thanks Steven.  Interesting.

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Tonyb]

Chris: thanks for the link to Scottish Library. Found both officers in Aug 1917 as a start. Do you happen to know what the italics and crossed swords mean? 

[Grovetown]

On 01/05/2021 at 08:17, FROGSMILE said:

They are all equipped with the 1903 pattern leather bandolier equipment.  ...  A number of men have leather gaiters in place of puttees which is relatively unusual, but might be connected with the transport section.  

 

Another good clue to transport/ mounted section is puttees tied at the ankle (man seated bottom left).

 

Also man seated third from left, and man seated third from right appear to have leather facings/ strappings to the inside legs of their pantaloons.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Grovetown said:

 

Another good clue to transport/ mounted section is puttees tied at the ankle (man seated bottom left).

 

Also man seated third from left, and man seated third from right appear to have leather facings/ strappings to the inside legs of their pantaloons.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Thank you GT, all contributory evidence.  It’s quite an evocative image I think.

[Steven Broomfield]

Our archivist has replied: the photo appeared on the cover of the Regimental Gazette in January 1970 as 'The Transport Section, after Arras', which would presumably date it to May/June, 1917. A veteran subsequently identified the people in the photo, and gives the unidentified officer a Lieutenant Wilkins or Watkins. At this stage we're unsure which it is, but the archivist is trying to find out.

 

If you drop me an email address I can send you the full list of names.

[IPT]

Could be Lt William Beaufort Watkins MM., who was formerly Pte 4501, and L/Sgt 511122. Went to France with 14th Londons 4/7/1915, and was commissioned 18/12/1916.

 

Watkins appears on a list of officers in the war diary on 30/7/1917, but Burtt does not.

 

 

 

Edited 9 May , 2021 by IPT