Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Uniform Identity


Recommended Posts

charlie962

The other MSM candidate I found was an Alfred George Thornton RGA 27777 but he has a service record showing he came from London so preumably rules him out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE

Superb photos that show us that at the time they were taken both men had been detached for temporary duty as Garrison Military Police (GMP).  This was in the days when there were only a very few full-time military policemen divided between the Military Mounted Police (MMP) and the Military Foot Police (MFP) who were deployed as necessary by the Provost Marshal and Assistant Provost Marshal to carry out duty primarily in and around principal lines of communication hubs.  To assist them in various garrisons and camps were temporary domestic policemen detached from their units, which is what we see here.  They essentially made sure that their own men and personnel from other garrison units behaved properly, by patrolling the streets and visiting dry and wet canteens as well as staffing guard rooms / houses where men who misbehaved were confined once placed under arrest.  These GMP were supervised by a SNCO appointed as the Provost Sergeant, who was generally supported by a Corporal.  The remaining men were either privates, or as in this case gunners.  Each man traditionally carried a stout stick when on duty, which can be seen being carried by the man on the left.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962

Great photos. Very interesting.

 

Both are Gunners ( rather than NCOs) RFA or RGA

Both wear GMP cuff bands as explained by Frogsmile.

Neither has any campaign medals for WW1, so photo 1918 or earlier.

 

Note that both Edmund and George McAllister subsequently served in Corps of Military Police having been RA.

 

I suggest:

Cannot be Thomas as he had rank and would be wearing IGSM ribbon.

Neither looks like Edmund

Could one of them be George McAllister ?

 

Charlie

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
HE Jamie
1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

Great photos. Very interesting.

 

Both are Gunners ( rather than NCOs) RFA or RGA

Both wear GMP cuff bands as explained by Frogsmile.

Neither has any campaign medals for WW1, so photo 1918 or earlier.

 

Note that both Edmund and George McAllister subsequently served in Corps of Military Police having been RA.

 

I suggest:

Cannot be Thomas as he had rank and would be wearing IGSM ribbon.

Neither looks like Edmund

Could one of them be George McAllister ?

 

Charlie

 

Defo pre-1917, this was a photo sent by William to his dad WCH Thornton prior to being kia - theres a lovely message from him on the back. Could well be George, defo not Edmund Thornton - i'll suggest this to my dad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
1 minute ago, HE Jamie said:

Defo pre-1917, this was a photo sent by William to his dad WCH Thornton prior to being kia - theres a lovely message from him on the back. Could well be George, defo not Edmund Thornton - i'll suggest this to my dad.

Could we see the message by any chance ? pm if you don't want to make it public! Do you know which one is Willaim ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
5 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

We're sure its the one on the left. 

Good to know. At the time of his death Willaim was a Bombardier but there are no stripes in the photo so must be some time earlier. As a prewar soldier and coming from all that military background I would expect him to be made up to NCO fairly quickly on being recalled (from Reserve, I suspect). Would that mean the photo was taken months or years before his death  do you think ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
HE Jamie
1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Good to know. At the time of his death Willaim was a Bombardier but there are no stripes in the photo so must be some time earlier. As a prewar soldier and coming from all that military background I would expect him to be made up to NCO fairly quickly on being recalled (from Reserve, I suspect). Would that mean the photo was taken months or years before his death  do you think ?

Going by the message on the back of the photo - the war was underway and reading between the lines, id say he was on posting and seeing action. So somewhere between 14-17

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE

Once promoted to Bombardier he would have worn a single stripe on each arm at that time.  Bombardier was a substantive (pay and pension earning) rank, but bear in mind that there was also Acting Bombardier that was a probationary position (not substantive) but also wore a single stripe whilst remaining on paper a substantive gunner.  Ergo the photo must predate any form of promotion.  I suspect that he may well have been promoted after his tour as GMP if he had performed well and gained the notice of his superiors as a result.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
49 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I suspect that he may well have been promoted after his tour as GMP if he had performed well and gained the notice of his superiors as a result.

 perhaps before posting overseas ? He has BWM and VM so did not go overseas before 1/1/16

59 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

the war was underway and reading between the lines, id say he was on posting and seeing action

Or perhaps just on the point of going o'seas and the photo was one he had had taken a little earlier? ie perhaps 1915  or early 1916.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

 perhaps before posting overseas ? He has BWM and VM so did not go overseas before 1/1/16

Or perhaps just on the point of going o'seas and the photo was one he had had taken a little earlier? ie perhaps 1915  or early 1916.

Impossible to be sure on the evidence so far, but yes I imagine promoted just before embarking, or perhaps after a little experience in the theatre of war itself.

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Impossible to be sure on the evidence so far,

Yes. The tall man with what we now assume is an immediate MSM must help date it, but we don't know who was the tall man. The GW Thornton (Geo Wm) that I referred to earlier was a 1918 award so not him. In fact probably not a Thornton ?

 

PS the photo was apparently printed by a Glasgow/Dunoon photographer

Edited by charlie962
Link to post
Share on other sites
HE Jamie

Do you think the young person at the bottom of this collage could be the tall soldier later on?

Screenshot_20210504-183203_Gallery.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
32 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

Do you think the young person at the bottom of this collage could be the tall soldier later on?

Yes, there is a resemblance. Looking at Edmund and the tall man , there is a family resemblance in chin and eyes. Photos are always tricky, though.

 

@FROGSMILE, is that a Broderick cap ? ie dates the photo ?

 

HE Jamie,  is there a name to that youngster ?

 

Great to see the enlarged photo of WCHT that is on Tree as a thumbnail.

 

I'm presuming those are mainly shooting medals WCHT wears.

Edited by charlie962
Link to post
Share on other sites
HE Jamie
2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Yes, there is a resemblance. Looking at Edmund and the tall man , there is a family resemblance in chin and eyes. Photos are always tricky, though.

 

Frogsmile, is that a Broderick cap ? ie dates the photo ?

 

HE Jamie,  is there a name to that youngster ?

 

Great to see the enlarged photo of WCHT that is on Tree as a thumbnail.

 

I'm presuming those are mainly shooting medals WCHT wears.

Sorry, again there was no name on the back of the young chap's photo. We initially thought it couldve been my grandad, edmund(at the top). 

Link to post
Share on other sites
HE Jamie
2 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

Sorry, again there was no name on the back of the young chap's photo. We initially thought it couldve been my grandad, edmund(at the top). 

 

Screenshot_20210504-185007_Samsung Internet.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
7 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

We initially thought it couldve been my grandad, edmund(at the top). 

That chin is very Edmund like.

Edmund enlisted 1908 in the Regulars and I thought that Broderick was worn 1902-190?? ie might have been withdrawn before that date. Could it be Militia or could it be Regular ?

 

EDIT  It could just possibly be worn in 1908 and could be Edmund

Edited by charlie962
Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962

WCHThornton, on his discharge paper (available on FindmyPast as already noted) 1906, had as medals only the Long Service & Good Conduct Medal noted. He completed 30 years Home Service.

Edited by charlie962
Link to post
Share on other sites
FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Yes, there is a resemblance. Looking at Edmund and the tall man , there is a family resemblance in chin and eyes. Photos are always tricky, though.

 

@FROGSMILE, is that a Broderick cap ? ie dates the photo ?

 

HE Jamie,  is there a name to that youngster ?

 

Great to see the enlarged photo of WCHT that is on Tree as a thumbnail.

 

I'm presuming those are mainly shooting medals WCHT wears.

Yes it’s a Brodrick cap (1900 (Guards) 1902 (Line) -1906 approx) and I do think it’s the same man.  Photo of uniform courtesy of forum member Toby Purcell.  

298693C0-4787-4FB0-BAD5-8B87ABFEA8F2.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962

Doesn't that date of cessation for Broderick cap (c 1906) mean the youngster is more likely to be William (attest 1904) or Robert (attest 1905) than Edmund (attest 1908) ?

The family likeness is clearly there.

 

charlie

Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton
On 03/05/2021 at 20:22, HE Jamie said:

Hoping this enhanced photo helps us

 

 

photo 001 (3).jpg

 

 

As we now know they were Garrison Military Police when the photograph was taken - do you know of any relatives with pre-war service in the Police? It was quite common during the war for former policemen to end up doing much the same during their military service, and the ribbon for the 1911 Police Coronation Medal would be an excellent fit (allowing for the fact orthochromatic film tends to see blue as very light and red as dark):

 

Metropolitan Police Coronation Medal, 1911


 

Edited by Andrew Upton
Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
18 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

As we now know they were Garrison Military Police when the photograph was taken - do you know of any relatives with pre-war service in the Police? It was quite common during the war for former policemen to end up doing much the same during their military service, and the ribbon for the 1911 Police Coronation Medal would be an excellent fit (allowing for the fact orthochromatic film tends to see blue as very light and red as dark):

What an interesting thought! Note that two brothers also joined Military Police at the end of the war.

 

Wiki tells me 2,800 were awarded to the Scottish police. Is there a Roll ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Alisonmallen62

I think the boy in the collage and the coloured photo are the same person looking at eyes ears and neck but the tall moustached soldier only has similar eyes his ears are at a different and his neck long. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962
16 hours ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

I think the boy in the collage and the coloured photo are the same person looking at eyes ears and neck but the tall moustached soldier only has similar eyes his ears are at a different and his neck long. 

The coloured photo is Edmund, Born April 1891. If he was the boy in the b/w photo, with the Broderick phased out 1906, he would have been 14 years old , We know he became a Regular in 1908. Could he have been in another unit/ militia etc beforehand. I suspect we really need to wait for that MoD Glasgow record for better clues.

 

The tall man does have a familiar chin ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...