Uniform Identity

[charlie962]

There is a good Tree on Ancestry that seems well researched. An Excellent photo of WCHTornton. I see that not only was WCHT's father William a soldier (as noted above) but his father William before that although I don't know the latter's Regiment.

 

EDIT   I am mistaken.

Edited 30 April , 2021 by charlie962

[HE Jamie]

On 30/04/2021 at 01:56, charlie962 said:

I note there was another brother Edmund, born 1890 (or so he told the Army but 1901 Census says 1892), who was also Regular RGA 28399 (enlistFeb 1908), winning a DCM with the Gold Coast Regiment !

 

But the ribbon in the photo is not DCM.

 

I post his citation (courtesy Ancestry) out of interest:

 

A family with distinguished service.

This is Sgt Edmund Thornton, my grandad, whose citation this is.

On 30/04/2021 at 23:04, charlie962 said:

There is a good Tree on Ancestry that seems well researched. An Excellent photo of WCHTornton. I see that not only was WCHT's father William a soldier (as noted above) but his father William before that although I don't know the latter's Regiment.

That might be my one🙂

[HE Jamie]

2 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

This is Sgt Edmund Thornton, my grandad, whose citation this is.

That might be my one🙂

No, it's my dad's cousin's - yes thats my great grandad - my dad has the original photo.

[charlie962]

7 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

but his father William before that although I don't know the latter's Regiment.    EDIT- NOT CORRECT

oops, I think I've confused William  with William  father!

Edited 30 April , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

11 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

This is Sgt Edmund Thornton, my grandad, whose citation this is.

Wearing uniform just post war, shoulder titles Military Foot Police, ribbons of DCM, 14/15 Star, BWM VM  (MIC shows his MFP no was 1744)

Edited 30 April , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Are you aware that the MoD at Glasgow still hold Edmund's service file, under RASC number 7681740 ? You can obtain a copy when they re-open.

 

Name:	E Thornton
Birth Date:	8 Apr 1891
Service Number:	7681740
Rank:	Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971
Additional Regiment:	Royal Army Service Corps
Reference Number:	ADH001624663

[HE Jamie]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Are you aware that the MoD at Glasgow still hold Edmund's service file, under RASC number 7681740 ? You can obtain a copy when they re-open.

 

Name:	E Thornton
Birth Date:	8 Apr 1891
Service Number:	7681740
Rank:	Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971
Additional Regiment:	Royal Army Service Corps
Reference Number:	ADH001624663

Oh my goodness me - ive been trying to trace his ww2 service number so i could try and locate hus service records for my dad! That is amazing - thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

 

The medal ribbon in the photo looks very like the earlier IGSM but surely he would not wear the old ribbon ?

He would only wear a ribbon that he earned Charlie, that’s always been unequivocal other than when some medals were ‘exchanged’ for replacements, such as the Albert medal.  I’m not a medal collector / enthusiast and I’ve pretty much run out of ideas as to what it might be.

[travers61]

You can apply for a copy of his records here. Applications are still being accepted, but expect a long wait of 9 months plus. As he was born over 116 years ago you don't need to supply a death certificate.

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

[charlie962]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He would only wear a ribbon that he earned Charlie, that’s always been unequivocal

Ok, I'm trying to force a match. That would seem to rule out it being Robert because he would have the IGSM 1909. Thus back to - Is there a Thornton who earned an MSM ?

 

PS I did post the medal ribbon on BMF and reply was that looks more like an immediate MSM. We need to see the full photo for other clues.

Edited 30 April , 2021 by charlie962

[HE Jamie]

28 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Ok, I'm trying to force a match. That would seem to rule out it being Robert because he would have the IGSM 1909. Thus back to - Is there a Thornton who earned an MSM ?

 

PS I did post the medal ribbon on BMF and reply was that looks more like an immediate MSM. We need to see the full photo for other clues.

I'll get my dad to bring me the original photo, and ill scan it and get my daughter to try and enhance it on adobe over the weekend.  There was also George Thornton and Albert Thornton - we just always assumed the photo was Wm and R.

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Ok, I'm trying to force a match. That would seem to rule out it being Robert because he would have the IGSM 1909. Thus back to - Is there a Thornton who earned an MSM ?

 

PS I did post the medal ribbon on BMF and reply was that looks more like an immediate MSM. We need to see the full photo for other clues.

Well it’s an interesting conundrum that’s for sure. I’ll be interested to learn what you find out.  I’ve heard of (read about) an immediate MSM, but gained the impression they were in the early days of the MSM and few of them.  It would be very rare I think if he does turn out to be a recipient, but best keep an open mind with these things.

Edited 30 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

35 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

Albert Thornton

I couldn' see a service record for him- Albert Henry, b 1882. Do you have any clues (apart from RGA!)

2 marriages and loads of children. Probably no time for overseas service ? Might be worth looking at birth cert of 1916 daughter ?

 

 

35 minutes ago, HE Jamie said:

There was also George Thornton

George McAllisterThornton b 11/12/1893 joined the Regular RA (see RA Attestations on FindmyPast) in 1921 with number 1052823 but trf'd same year to Corps of Military Police. Gives previous Service number as RGA  54511 (4yrs 21 days prev service). 

That leads to Medal Rolls showing first went overseas France 28/9/15 and Trf'd to Z Reserve 24/2/19. Shown on BWM/VM Roll as 36 Siege Battery.

MoD will hold his Service record as well.

G Thornton
Birth Date:	11 Dec 1893
Service Number:	1052823
Rank:	Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939
Reference Number:	ADT000673947

 

Charlie

Edited 30 April , 2021 by charlie962

[HE Jamie]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Ok, I'm trying to force a match. That would seem to rule out it being Robert because he would have the IGSM 1909. Thus back to - Is there a Thornton who earned an MSM ?

 

PS I did post the medal ribbon on BMF and reply was that looks more like an immediate MSM. We need to see the full photo for other clues.

 

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I couldn' see a service record for him- Albert Henry, b 1882. Do you have any clues (apart from RGA!)

2 marriages and loads of children. Probably no time for overseas service ? Might be worth looking at birth cert of 1916 daughter ?

 

 

George McAllisterThornton b 11/12/1893 joined the Regular RA (see RA Attestations on FindmyPast) in 1921 with number 1052823 but trf'd same year to Corps of Military Police. Gives previous Service number as RGA  54511 (4yrs 21 days prev service). 

That leads to Medal Rolls showing first went overseas France 28/9/15 and Trf'd to Z Reserve 24/2/19. Shown on BWM/VM Roll as 36 Siege Battery.

MoD will hold his Service record as well.

G Thornton
Birth Date:	11 Dec 1893
Service Number:	1052823
Rank:	Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939
Reference Number:	ADT000673947

 

Charlie

No other clues re Albert - yes he had a very large family. My dad thinks that George served in Egypt at some point too.  Thanks Charlie, i appreciate all your posts. Ive got alot to share with my dad. 

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve heard of (read about) an immediate MSM, but gained the impression they were in the early days of the MSM and few of them.

 

 

Same source as I posted above ---

 

"What was, in effect, a second type of MSM was introduced in Oct 1916 when immediate awards for exceptionally valuable & meritorious service were introduced.  In Jan 1917 this was extended to include individual acts of gallantry not in the presence of the enemy."

[Provost]

While unable to add anything to the RA Thorntons, I can add a little on Edmund. If you look carefully at the wonderful coloured photo, you can see the hook of his police whistle chain in his top button-hole, and the chain going into his left and breast pocket. Edmund first joined on 14th February 1908. He served in West Africa between 1915-16; South Africa in 1916; East Africa between 1916-18 and West Africa again in 1918. He was discharged on 19th March 1918. He re-enlisted into the Military Foot Police on 31st March 1920 aged 28 years 358 days, and was given the No 1744 (between 1919-20, the Military Police changed from the wartime P prefix numbers to 4 figure ones). When the entire Army re-numbered, he was given another No - 7681740 (the Corps of Military Police block of numbers was 7681001 to 7717000). At the time of his re-enlistment, he was a Policeman . He served in Germany as part of the first BAOR, and was discharged from the Corps at Aldershot on 18th November 1922 under Para 392 (xvi) - no longer physically fit for service. He was discharged as a Lance Corporal, and his character was listed as Very Good.

 

He re-enlisted once more, this time into the Royal Army Service Corps Special Reserve Category C on 17th October 1924, and then transferred from the RASC (TA) into the Corps of Military Police (TA) on 30th March 1939. On 12th July, he was transferred once again to the RASC and was posted to 51st (Highland) Div.

 

I hope this helps. I'll PM you with any additional info I find on the Military Police part of his service.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

[HE Jamie]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

While unable to add anything to the RA Thorntons, I can add a little on Edmund. If you look carefully at the wonderful coloured photo, you can see the hook of his police whistle chain in his top button-hole, and the chain going into his left and breast pocket. Edmund first joined on 14th February 1908. He served in West Africa between 1915-16; South Africa in 1916; East Africa between 1916-18 and West Africa again in 1918. He was discharged on 19th March 1918. He re-enlisted into the Military Foot Police on 31st March 1920 aged 28 years 358 days, and was given the No 1744 (between 1919-20, the Military Police changed from the wartime P prefix numbers to 4 figure ones). When the entire Army re-numbered, he was given another No - 7681740 (the Corps of Military Police block of numbers was 7681001 to 7717000). At the time of his re-enlistment, he was a Policeman . He served in Germany as part of the first BAOR, and was discharged from the Corps at Aldershot on 18th November 1922 under Para 392 (xvi) - no longer physically fit for service. He was discharged as a Lance Corporal, and his character was listed as Very Good.

 

He re-enlisted once more, this time into the Royal Army Service Corps Special Reserve Category C on 17th October 1924, and then transferred from the RASC (TA) into the Corps of Military Police (TA) on 30th March 1939. On 12th July, he was transferred once again to the RASC and was posted to 51st (Highland) Div.

 

I hope this helps. I'll PM you with any additional info I find on the Military Police part of his service.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

This is my dad with all his dad's medals

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/05/2021 at 05:10, RNCVR said:

 

 

Same source as I posted above ---

 

"What was, in effect, a second type of MSM was introduced in Oct 1916 when immediate awards for exceptionally valuable & meritorious service were introduced.  In Jan 1917 this was extended to include individual acts of gallantry not in the presence of the enemy."

Thanks Bryan.  With that criteria it certainly seems a possibility then. 

 

[HE Jamie]

Ive had this photo sent to me today re Robert's service/posting in India. Would any of you be able to shed any light on where they may have served, how long they may have been there, and the type of operations theyd have been involved in. Thank you, in anticipation.

 

[charlie962]

Jamie,

That is the Census 1911 for Quetta, India for the 8th Mountain Battery RGA that I referred to in a much earlier post. Robert is listed with them 1911 and as I also noted, he was with them to earn his Northwest Frontier medal in 1908.

 

If he had enlisted 1905 and spent a year or so in UK then maybe he joined this unit in India c 1907. How long he stayed with them I cannot say.

 

There is a history of the Indian Mountain Artillery that I will look up for your reference.

 

Charlie

 

PS Did you also note that his father WCHT has a service record on FindmyPast (and probably Ancestry- See their Fold3 here) Several pages but mostly covering his marriage and children!

 

EDIT The History I refer to is available here on reprint offer

Edited 1 May , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Jamie,

That is the Census 1911 for Quetta, India for the 8th Mountain Battery RGA that I referred to in a much earlier post. Robert is listed with them 1911 and as I also noted, he was with them to earn his Northwest Frontier medal in 1908.

 

If he had enlisted 1905 and spent a year or so in UK then maybe he joined this unit in India c 1907. How long he stayed with them I cannot say.

 

There is a history of the Indian Mountain Artillery that I will look up for your reference.

 

Charlie

 

PS Did you also note that his father WCHT has a service record on FindmyPast (and probably Ancestry) Several pages but mostly covering his marriage and children!

 

EDIT The History I refer to is available here on reprint offer

There is some excellent information on the Mountain Artillery at the superb FIBISwiki site here: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Mountain_Artillery

Some units were all European (British) and some with native gunners and lascars with some British officers and (a few) SNCOs.

Edited 1 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

19 hours ago, HE Jamie said:

This is my dad with all his dad's medals

Thanks for posting.

[charlie962]

On 02/05/2021 at 01:55, FROGSMILE said:

There is some excellent information on the Mountain Artillery at the superb FIBISwiki site here: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Mountain_Artillery

Some units were all European (British) and some with native gunners and lascars with some British officers and (a few) SNCOs.

Indeed fibiswiki has excellent info on anything to do with the British in India. The unit to which Robert Thornton belonged was a British Mountain Artillery Unit of the RGA, not one of the Indian Army units. All very confusing potentially when the British unit (8th Mountain Battery RGA)  was serving in India alongside the 28th Mountain Battery of the Indian Army which was at some stage known as the 8th (Lahore) Mountain Battery !

 

On 02/05/2021 at 01:39, HE Jamie said:

Would any of you be able to shed any light on where they may have served, how long they may have been there, and the type of operations theyd have been involved in

As I said, Robert would have been with them pre-war but by Aug 1914 he was obviously back in UK. These are my thoughts on 1908 Campaign in which he participated. We seemed to have ruled Robert out as the taller man in the phot because he would be wearing this ribbon:

 

 

India General Service Medal 1908
with clasp North West Frontier 1908

 

Indian Frontier Wars were a classic feature of Victorian and 20th century Army life. Periods of peace, interrupted by sporadic raids by local tribesmen gradually building up to a level that required a 'punitive expedition' to bring matters back under control. The North West Frontier, with its neighbourhood to Afghanistan and the Khyber Pass is perhaps the best known.

After the last great uprisings and suppression of 1897/8 unrest simmered below the surface with occasional local eruptions. Matters reached a head again in 1908 with serious numbers of armed incursions by tribesman  from two neighbouring areas of the Northwest Frontier, the Zakka Khel and the Mohmand. Within these areas there were numerous clans, some co-operative with the British but many hostile. The decision was taken by the Government of India to mount an expedition to re-establish order, capture and try the ringleaders, secure agreements and punish the offending tribes by fines and burning representative villages and crops.

The Zakka Khel were the first to be dealt with in late February 1908 in a short, sharp series of actions by the "Bazar Valley Field Force".

 Attention was then turned in April 1908 to the tribes in the Mohmand, who were reported to have amassed a force of some 10,000+ men.  A 'Mohand Field Force" was built up, consisting of some 2,500 British and 15,000 Indian troops and followers.The 8th Mountain Battery RGA, along with three Indian mountain batteries and two field batteries, formed part of this second expedition. The action that followed is best described by reading the Duckers book noted below. By the end of May 1908 the Field Force had completed its task and left the Mohmand, having suffered 52 killed and 205 wounded. Enemy losses were estimated at 450.

Whilst battle casualties may seem relatively small compared to the number of troops involved, a significant part of the effort was to battle with the geographical and climatic conditions.

 

For details of the campaign there is a useful work by Peter Duckers "North West Frontier 1908" published by Spink in 2006. It mentions 8th Mountain Bty two or three times -and interestingly quotes their ammunition expenditure. Strangely (if I've read it correctly?) that seems to be principally seems to be small arms and machine gun and not shell? The Battery casualties were one man killed, one wounded.

 

For a general history of the Mountain Gunners then General CAL Graham's "History of the Indian Mountain Artillery", published 1957 but available in reprint (I posted a link above) and also free on archive.org, is best.Pages 111 to 115 are relevant. Bear in mind that your 8th Mountain Battery RGA was a British rather than Indian Army unit and is thus only briefly mentioned in this volume.. In Graham's history he uses later designations of the Indian units, eg renaming 28th Indian Mountain Battery, that was in the same Force,as 8th (Lahore) Mountain Battery, just to confuse you There is also a book "Tales of the Mountain Gunners" 1973. (I've not read it) but that is harder to find. I don't know if it limits itself to Inian batteries or covers British as well ?

There may be coverage on British Mountain Artillery Batteries in the "History of the Royal Artillery 1899-1914" by General Headlam but I found it thin on the ground. It appears to be an overlooked area ? @ianjonesnclmight know more ?

 

Do please let us know what you learn.

 

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Indeed fibiswiki has excellent info on anything to do with the British in India. The unit to which Robert Thornton belonged was a British Mountain Artillery Unit of the RGA, not one of the Indian Army units. All very confusing potentially when the British unit (8th Mountain Battery RGA)  was serving in India alongside the 28th Mountain Battery of the Indian Army which was at some stage known as the 8th (Lahore) Mountain Battery !

 

As I said, Robert would have been with them pre-war but by Aug 1914 he was obviously back in UK. These are my thoughts on 1908 Campaign in which he participated. We seemed to have ruled Robert out as the taller man in the phot because he would be wearing this ribbon:

 

 

India General Service Medal 1908
with clasp North West Frontier 1908

 

Indian Frontier Wars were a classic feature of Victorian and 20th century Army life. Periods of peace, interrupted by sporadic raids by local tribesmen gradually building up to a level that required a 'punitive expedition' to bring matters back under control. The North West Frontier, with its neighbourhood to Afghanistan and the Khyber Pass is perhaps the best known.

After the last great uprisings and suppression of 1897/8 unrest simmered below the surface with occasional local eruptions. Matters reached a head again in 1908 with serious numbers of armed incursions by tribesman  from two neighbouring areas of the Northwest Frontier, the Zakka Khel and the Mohmand. Within these areas there were numerous clans, some co-operative with the British but many hostile. The decision was taken by the Government of India to mount an expedition to re-establish order, capture and try the ringleaders, secure agreements and punish the offending tribes by fines and burning representative villages and crops.

The Zakka Khel were the first to be dealt with in late February 1908 in a short, sharp series of actions by the "Bazar Valley Field Force".

 Attention was then turned in April 1908 to the tribes in the Mohmand, who were reported to have amassed a force of some 10,000+ men.  A 'Mohand Field Force" was built up, consisting of some 2,500 British and 15,000 Indian troops and followers.The 8th Mountain Battery RGA, along with three Indian mountain batteries and two field batteries, formed part of this second expedition. The action that followed is best described by reading the Duckers book noted below. By the end of May 1908 the Field Force had completed its task and left the Mohmand, having suffered 52 killed and 205 wounded. Enemy losses were estimated at 450.

Whilst battle casualties may seem relatively small compared to the number of troops involved, a significant part of the effort was to battle with the geographical and climatic conditions.

 

For details of the campaign there is a useful work by Peter Duckers "North West Frontier 1908" published by Spink in 2006. It mentions 8th Mountain Bty two or three times -and interestingly quotes their ammunition expenditure. Strangely (if I've read it correctly?) that seems to be principally seems to be small arms and machine gun and not shell? The Battery casualties were one man killed, one wounded.

 

For a general history of the Mountain Gunners then General CAL Graham's "History of the Indian Mountain Artillery", published 1957 but available in reprint (I posted a link above) and also free on archive.org, is best.Pages 111 to 115 are relevant. Bear in mind that your 8th Mountain Battery RGA was a British rather than Indian Army unit and is thus only briefly mentioned in this volume.. In Graham's history he uses later designations of the Indian units, eg renaming 28th Indian Mountain Battery, that was in the same Force,as 8th (Lahore) Mountain Battery, just to confuse you There is also a book "Tales of the Mountain Gunners" 1973. (I've not read it) but that is harder to find. I don't know if it limits itself to Inian batteries or covers British as well ?

There may be coverage on British Mountain Artillery Batteries in the "History of the Royal Artillery 1899-1914" by General Headlam but I found it thin on the ground. It appears to be an overlooked area ? @ianjonesnclmight know more ?

 

Do please let us know what you learn.

 

Charlie

Yes it was because of the potential confusion that I mentioned the all European and Native units specifically.  It wasn’t clear to me at first which he was, although a European battery did seem more likely.

Edited 2 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

following up the MSM thread.

I find an MSM card 3/8/18 for Sgt G W Thornton, RFA, 51511, MSM Salonika for Devotion. Could this be a mistranscript (I've seen card) of G M Thornton 54111 ? ie George McAllister Thornton, the younger brother that I detailed above ?

viz

George McAllisterThornton b 11/12/1893 joined the Regular RA (see RA Attestations on FindmyPast) in 1921 with number 1052823 but trf'd same year to Corps of Military Police. Gives previous Service number as RGA  54511 (4yrs 21 days prev service). 

That leads to Medal Rolls showing first went overseas France 28/9/15 and Trf'd to Z Reserve 24/2/19. Shown on BWM/VM Roll as 36 Siege Battery.

MoD will hold his Service record as well.

G Thornton
Birth Date:	11 Dec 1893
Service Number:	1052823
Rank:	Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939
Reference Number:	ADT000673947

 

 

Courtesy Genealogist:

 

EDIT - on further searching unfortunately  I think just a coincidence as this is George William Thornton 51511 has his own Medal Index Card !!  Was he a cousin ?

 

 

Edited 2 May , 2021 by charlie962