Private, Louis Henri Vinot, 20th Batt Middlesex Regiment, Service N° G/41188

[George Millar]

Louis Henri Vinot was born in the third quarter of 1896 in the Marylebone area of London to parents Louis Joseph Vinot and Clemence Marie Lombard.  He was one of six children born to his parents having 5 sisters, Josephine Marie; Marguerite Emma; Eugenie Louise; Jeanne and Alice May.  His parents were French having been born in the Vosges department of Lorraine, France in 1860 but had moved to England sometime between 1886 and 1890.  Louis Henri’s father was a “violin maker” and whether this influenced his decision to move to London isn’t known as perhaps he had more opportunities to sell his violins in London.

 

In World War One, Louis Henri joined the 1/8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment Territorial Force with a Service N° 4550 but sometime later was posted to the 20th (Service) Battalion and given the Service N° G/41188.  Unfortunately he was killed on the 12th June 1917 in Gonnelieu, France, I believe as a result of the German shelling of the battalion’s lines.  The battalion’s war diary lists one” other rank” killed on this day.  He is buried in Fins New British Cemetery in Grave Ref IV. K. 9.

 

I was wondering if any forum members could help in establishing firstly when he enlisted and secondly when he transferred battalions.  I have found that with the Service N° 4550 his enlistment might have been between September and October 1914 (S/N° 4523 – 11thSep 1914 & S/N° 4596 – 21st Oct 1914).  He would only have been 18 years old on enlistment and wouldn’t have been able to serve overseas.  However, with the Service N° G/41188 I have found that this would have given him an enlistment date of the 31st May 1915 (Frank Joseph Vidler S/N° G/41187 – 31st May 1915).  Would this date reflect when he was posted to the 20th battalion?  I have tried to establish his enlistment from his effects of £6 10s in the “Registers of Soldiers Effects” and I have estimated this to give approx 20 months service which would give a date of enlistment of October 1915 (possible Derby Scheme).  However, this doesn’t tie up with the estimated dates of the service numbers so now I’m totally confused.  

 

As he wasn’t awarded the 1914/15 star, this would imply that he didn’t go overseas until 1916 at the earliest.  In the Service Medal & Award Rolls for him, all the other soldiers listed on this page have all served initially with the 1/8th battalion before being posted to the 20th battalion.  However, on checking the war diaries for the 1/8th and the 20th battalions I cannot find a major draft of men from the 1/8th to the 20th battalion.

 

Any information or help would be appreciated.  Many thanks in advance.

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, George Millar said:

I have found that with the Service N° 4550 his enlistment might have been between September and October 1914 (S/N° 4523 – 11thSep 1914 & S/N° 4596 – 21st Oct 1914).

George,

I would question your assumptions. If you have used Silver War Badge data then you will be misled because of transfers.

 

I have a suspicion that you have picked near service numbers that are Middlesex Regiment but not 8th Bn ?

I note that the 455? series of numbers were being issued to Territorials of the 3/8th Bn around the 23rd March 1915.

 

2 hours ago, George Millar said:

joined the 1/8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment Territorial Force with a Service N° 4550

How do you know he first joined the 1/8th Bn ? If you took this from Medal Roll then that would be the unit with which he first went overseas. He could have been in a different Bn beforehand -eg 3/8th then trf'd to 1/8th. I'm assuming this would not trigger a change of number because it was still the 8th Mdx.

 

2 hours ago, George Millar said:

However, with the Service N° G/41188 I have found that this would have given him an enlistment date of the 31st May 1915 (Frank Joseph Vidler S/N° G/41187 – 31st May 1915).  Would this date reflect when he was posted to the 20th battalion?

I think you will find that this range of numbers was actually allocated in October 1916 and it would be on that date he was transferred from 1/8th to 20th Bn . May I suggest you check war diary around this date ?

 

2 hours ago, George Millar said:

I have tried to establish his enlistment from his effects of £6 10s in the “Registers of Soldiers Effects” and I have estimated this to give approx 20 months service which would give a date of enlistment of October 1915 (possible Derby Scheme).  However, this doesn’t tie up with the estimated dates of the service numbers so now I’m totally confused.  

We need @craig's help to verify calc which is for a Private, Type 1 Gratuity of £6-10-00 died 12/6/1917

 

Hopefully that last calc will confirm my thinking.....

 

Charlie

 

 

 

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

I think that Charlie probably meant @ss002d6252 . His early version calculator would appear to give a date of circa December 1915, but near number sampling of a few 455* 8/Middlesex men appears to show that they attested in March 1915. I'm a bit confused.

 

Regards

Chris

[ss002d6252]

£6 10s gross is £8 10s net so 19 month's qualifying service.

https://www.wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

I'd be suspicious of the 4550 number as being the original number. It's very rare the war gratuity is wrong (army financial accounting was typically spot on) and neither does SDGW show any earlier numbers.

 

411XX numbers all seems to date from around Oct/Nov 1915.

Craig

[George Millar]

Hello Charlie, Chris & Craig,

Many thanks for the info and sorry for the delay in getting back to you. 

 

I did take him serving with the 1/8th battalion from his Medal Roll with his previous Service N° of 4550 and the dates of enlistment from the Silver War Badge Records for that series of numbers (but these did give various dates of enlistments from 1914 through to 1916).  However if this 455? series of numbers was issued to the 3/8th around the 23rd March 1915 and he then transferred to the 1/8th before going overseas then would his date of enlistment have been March 1915?  Craig has confirmed my estimate of his enlistment date from his war gratuity of an October/November 1915 enlistment and this doesn't seem to tie up with the 455? series of numbers.   As regards the G/4118? series of numbers being allocated in October 1916 then I'll have another look at the 20th battalions war diary to see if there was a large draft of men joining on that date.   As he wasn't awarded the star medal, then his entry into a theatre of operations wouldn't have been before 1916 so I'll check the war diary to see if there were any drafts of men to the 1/8th battalion from the 3/8th battalion in early 1916. 

 

Once again, many thanks to all for the replies.

 

George

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Craig has confirmed my estimate of his enlistment date from his war gratuity of an October/November 1915 enlistment and this doesn't seem to tie up with the 455? series of number

By the war gratuity, his enlistment was in the month from 13 Nov 1915 - the 411XX range of number was being allocated Oct/Nov 1915 so fits in with what we know.
 

Quote

However if this 455? series of numbers was issued to the 3/8th around the 23rd March 1915 and he then transferred to the 1/8th before going overseas then would his date of enlistment have been March 1915? 

It would have to be that at the latest, just based on that number.

 

There is the long-shot - and that can be hidden amongst the data - that he had a very short period as 455X and was discharged before re-enlisting in 1916.

Craig

[George Millar]

Craig,

Sorry I read the G/411xx series of numbers being allocated in October 1916 from Charlie's post but with your date of Oct/Nov 1915 then this would indeed make more sense with his war gratuity calculation.  As regards him being discharged from the 1/8th battalion before re-enlisting in 1915 to the 20th battalion I wouldn't know where to look to check that out.  His service records haven't survived so no luck there.  Once again, thanks for the info.

George

[clk]

Hi,

 

Looking at the medal rolls, it seems to show a number of men from the 1/8 Bn who were renumbered to consecutive G/411** numbers when they were transferred to the 20th Bn. There are however a couple of gaps in the run - one being G/41171. I think that number was allocated to a Charles Soanes. From the Labour Corps medal rolls (minus the 'G' prefix) he is shown as:

 

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

He seems to have been:

 

4993 - 7 Middlesex Regiment

To 3/9 Middlesex Regiment on 9.6.1916 as 9/4903

Posted overseas 11.10.1916

Posted to 1/8 Middlesex Regiment on 27.10.1916

Posted to 20 Middlesex Regiment on 2.11.1916

Joined the Battalion in the field on 5.11.1916*

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

*The 20th Battalion war diary notes a draft of 80 men on the 4th November 1916, but nothing for the 5th.

 

I wonder if like Charles Soanes, Louis probably never served 'in anger' with the 1/8 Bn; and if his 4550 number might have been a 9th Bn number?

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[ss002d6252]

4 hours ago, George Millar said:

Craig,

Sorry I read the G/411xx series of numbers being allocated in October 1916 from Charlie's post but with your date of Oct/Nov 1915 then this would indeed make more sense with his war gratuity calculation.  As regards him being discharged from the 1/8th battalion before re-enlisting in 1915 to the 20th battalion I wouldn't know where to look to check that out.  His service records haven't survived so no luck there.  Once again, thanks for the info.

George

That's a very difficult one to prove or disprove without additional records - sometimes SDGW shows prior service but not on this occasion. The war gratuity can often solve issues but unfortunately not this time.

Craig

[charlie962]

16 hours ago, clk said:

I think that Charlie probably meant @ss002d6252 . His early version calculator would appear to give a date of circa December 1915, but near number sampling of a few 455* 8/Middlesex men appears to show that they attested in March 1915. I'm a bit confused.

Thanks for correcting that slip and thanks to the real Craig for doing the calc.

 

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

the 411XX range of number was being allocated Oct/Nov 1915

as I said above I have October 1916 for the issue of those G numbers, upon trf  1/8th to 20th Middlesex.

 

2 minutes ago, clk said:

Looking at the medal rolls, it seems to show a number of men from the 1/8 Bn who were renumbered to consecutive G/411** numbers when they were transferred to the 20th Bn. There are however a couple of gaps in the run - one being G/41171. I think that number was allocated to a Charles Soanes.

Chris, you could be on to something and your copy of a service record agrees with others that I'd seen for the 1/8th to 20th trf date and saves me digging out an example. But I will check to see wheter there is similar earlier switching- which I think was the case. All designed to mislead!

 

Charlie

[George Millar]

Chris,

Although there wasn't a draft of men on the 5th November 1916, there was a draft of 37 other ranks on the 7th Nov and another draft of 33 other ranks on the 8th Nov so perhaps he joined the battalion in one of these drafts.

George

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks for correcting that slip and thanks to the real Craig for doing the calc.

 

as I said above I have October 1916 for the issue of those G numbers, upon trf  1/8th to 20th Middlesex.

 

Chris, you could be on to something and your copy of a service record agrees with others that I'd seen for the 1/8th to 20th trf date and saves me digging out an example. But I will check to see wheter there is similar earlier switching- which I think was the case. All designed to mislead!

 

Charlie

 

My error - should have said 1916. Apologies for the subsequent confusion,

 

War Gratuity date still holds though.

 

Craig

[charlie962]

eg   G41144, courtesy Find myPast, John Pragnell (or Prangnell) went via different Mdx Bns before this:

 

 

ie first goes overseas with 1/8th and almost immediately trfd to 20th. But started his time in a completely differnt Bn and changed at least once before 1/8th.

[charlie962]

eg2 G/41174 Robert Springham (or Springburn) is not disimilar to Soanes

 

He came from 7th Bn Mdx

[George Millar]

Chris,

Just looked at the Service record for Charles Soanes.  From his active service form it seems that although his service reckons from the 7th June 1916 it lists his date of enlistment as the 11th December 1915 (the 7th June 1916 being crossed out).  He then went overseas on the 11th October 1916 and joined the 1/8th battalion but as you have highlighted he didn't stay with battalion for very long as he was posted to the 20th battalion on the 2nd Nov 1916 and joined them in the field on the 5th Nov 1916.  I would presume that Louis Henri's service would probably have followed in a similar vein.

Regards

George