Bayonets of Austro-Ugrian Empire

[AndyBsk]

There is more differences MRD, locking lenght and as correctly mentioned position of edge on blade.

[4thGordons]

Just a snippet of information that may have passed you by Andy -

 

Steyr made Chilean M1912 rifles (and short rifles) and their bayonet were used in small numbers (820) in WWI by the British Admiralty. They were part of the armaments complement on 2 warships under construction in Britain when war broke out which were seized by the British (along with their rifles and bayonets) These rifles and bayonets were generally issued to "Defensively Armed Merchant Ships" and minesweepers. On p16 of vol 4 of his series of works on Secondary Small Arms, Tony Edwards reproduced a very nice picture of a merchant seaman armed with an M1912 affixing his bayonet. The surviving examples of British used rifles have A prefixes and 3 digit serial numbers.

A similar thing appears to have happened with a small number of German made Brazilian 1908 Mausers (which were aboard a Battleship which had originally been built for Brazil but who - prior to her delivery sold it on to Turkey - and it was subsequently seized by Britain and served as HMS Agincort)

This is the reason I have both a Chilean and Brazilian rifle and bayonet in my "WWI" collection.

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Chris thanks for the info, this is more as possible as some deliveries were done even in 1914, when the situation was already problematic, it could be the deliveries per ships were not delivered to destination country. Anyway major of blocks of Chile M12 contract was delivered as already seen on various market. Question is what for configuration where these rifles, as long rifles in A range should be delivered already in 1913, it could be short rifle or carbine M12. So the reality when i understand correctly, chilean sent the M12 rifles to UK to add it on new ships, which were not delivered but used by UK Navy in WW1, the chilean rifle contract was probably fully exported by Steyr in 1913.

Edited 19 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

The other rifles and bayonets used in Austro-Ugrian army were greek contract M03/14 rifles and bayonets, as i dont have similar bayonet, i will forward any interesting collector to look here at forum to thread about  WW1 greek bayonets, as there are similar modells exactly described, the mentioned bayonets M03/14 has a T section long blade, a identical handle as M03 Mannlicher - Schoenauer bayonets, the scabbard was leather body with steel fittings, the maker is OE/WG Steyr, on one side of crossguard was a origin serial number matched with rifle, these confiscated bayonets at Steyr were mostly used by Polish Legion in WW1 as serving in north Galizia region.

The no.15 bayonet is romanian contract M1893 which was in similar way confiscated by Austrian Army in Steyr, before export to Romania in 1914, large bunch of that rifles were reworked to 8mm x50R austrian ammo, the bayonets are identical to Romanian M1893 modell, the blade has normal lower edge position, is bright 27mm as M88 modell, which has identical blade, 250mm lenght, the spine of handle is similar to S71/84 model, the small MRD 14mm is about 8mm high on barel ring. Normally the romanian bayonets has a romanian eagle proof on pommel, but this bayonet has a austrian eagle on other ricasso as is the maker OE/WG Steyr marked. The scabbard is identical with normal austrian M88/90 scabbards,

 

 

Edited 16 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Large numbers of captured material were used by Austro Ugrian Army, one of the most typical are russian Mosin 91 rifles and bayonets, some of them were refurbished into 8x50R but majority were used in origin russian calibre 7,62x54R, to these rifles were used mainly the origin russian socket bayonet with a replacement sheet scabbard of various type. Bayonets nr.16 Mosin 91 socket bayonet, here unfortunally with lost locking ring and with ersatz scabbard, the maker was bow and arrow logo for Izhewskij Oružejnij Zavod - Armory of Izhewsk. Quadrangular blade in section, with socket lenght 70,5mm, MRD 15mm, blade lenght 430mm, overall lenght is 500mm, thickness of blade 17mm.

Added comparation of various Mosin 91 bayonets.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

We’re the German and Austrian ersatz steel scabbards for Mosin Nagant 91 bayonets the same?

[AndyBsk]

No,the german scabbards are different made,different material, different hooks.

[Steve1871]

Hey Andy, the #14, the 71/84style humpback pommel. I know Steyr also made and other countries used with different , higher cross guard with smaller MRD’s for different rifles. Spain was the biggest contract.

Do you have a list or know what countries used the “humpback “ pommel “ 71/84 style

Besides Germany

Spain, M93 rifles        
Ronania, M 93 and M 95 ( maybe) shirt rifles.    
Hungarie? M95????         
??

[AndyBsk]

Humpback handle is mostly used by

- Germany on S71/84 blade 254mm, MRD 17,4mm, 6mm high

-Spanish M93 which is copy of S71/84 with higher positioned ring 18mm above handle and smaller MRD 15,5mm,

-similar by Romania M93, middle position of ring with  MRD 14mm

-export bayonets for M1904 rifle mainly to irish revolutianers or UVF,  dimmension identical to Romanian M93

- other export bayonets for Gew88 rifles with S71/84 bayonets by Steyr , MRD 17,4mm

-and there are some smaller contracts to South America, not extra described in ABC, MRD 15,5mm, low position ring, short Mauser slot. 

Edited 24 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

Hello,

Photo of two types of German scabbards for captured Mosin bayonets. (ebay source)

Best Rafał

[AndyBsk]

Rafal thanks for adding german type scabbards for Mosin 91 bayonets, similar types were not used by Austrian army.

Edited 24 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

 

6 hours ago, Rafal1971 said:

Hello,

Photo of two types of German scabbards for captured Mosin bayonets. (ebay source)

Best Rafał

I always thought the top one only was German. Happy to be corrected!

[4thGordons]

Here is another style of scabbard for the M1891. This one is manufactured much more like the French Lebel bayonet scabbard (with the loop for the frog and the ball on the end - although it is of course shorter and thicker than the lebel scabbard). I am not certain who produced these. It is totally unmarked. Markings on the M1891 are shown

 

Edited 24 August , 2021 by 4thGordons

[AndyBsk]

This bayonet is romanian refurbishment and the scabbard was designed after Lebel scabbard but is romanian origin and has no link to WW1. To have more info we should see both side of socket with details of marking.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[4thGordons]

On 24/08/2021 at 15:35, AndyBsk said:

 see both side of socket with details of marking.

  These are the only markings on the bayonet unfortunately.

 

Here is another which I hope will be more to your standards! A Hungarian made (and I think Honved marked - crest on scabbard on reverse of blade) example with the sight blade on the muzzle ring.

 

 

[Steve1871]

All that paint remains on top from where a frog covered it is nice. Bright blade, only a small crack in grip from screw. Common. 

[Steve1871]

Hey Andy, bayonets #16, nice group showing variations of shoulder. I knew of a bayonet ( MN 91) with the added front site, rare, was for sale for over a year. Had a thumb print size chunk out of one edge of crusifix blade. Gone now. Did not know how rare it was, was cheap, should have gotten. 
Do you have one??

Are all 4 the flat ( screwdriver tip)?

Edited 1 September , 2021 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Chris nice untouched M95 Stutzen bajonet used mostly by ugrian Landwehr as so marked probably, any unit stamp on pommel? nice remains of green color on scabbard probably covered by frog, which preserved it well. The green color is typical for later hungarian units. Should be WW1 period production from rough surface of blade.

 To Mosin, when You have any pictures of both side of socket wout the scabbard added it would be nice to see. The K in circle stamp is not typical for Russia. The azbuka P stamp is typical for proof.

Edited 1 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Steve the russian production and contracts are screwdriver tip on quadrangular blade,sorry but i dont understand what You mean with added front site? when You mean a sightcover added on socket so its later one Mosin 91/30 early Panshin model probably? .You should explain it, as my english is bad.

Here is my russian contract by Chatellerault Mosin 91.

Edited 1 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Yes, it was a sight hood on the bayonet

[AndyBsk]

So that was a sowiet period early M91/30 variation,called Panshin version.personally dont have this variation of bayonet.

[4thGordons]

14 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

 To Mosin, when You have any pictures of both side of socket wout the scabbard added it would be nice to see. The K in circle stamp is not typical for Russia. The azbuka P stamp is typical for proof.

Unfortunately there are no unit marks on the M95 but it goes well with by Budapest made short rifle,

I got the Mosin out again and gave it a wipe over with oil and there is a small mark on the other side it looks like a T ? (there is also a mark on the back the "end" of the blade which may just be a machining mark or flaw but looks like a stamp) please see below

 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Is always good to present pictures, the hammer on other side is for Tula production, its already a postwar romanian refurbishing, so the old rusted blade was cleaned and reblued. there should be normally stamped or carved a new serial number on blade shank, personally dont see anything on elbow end, mostly mashining spures by rework. same as romanians sometimes carved new serials with elektropencil. From form of P marking and K in circle i would tend to sowjet era piece post 1920 made.

The pictures are best taken by daylight wout flash on non sunny side, as there are too dark for any details.

Edited 2 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Bayonet nr.17 a ersatz production for captured russian Mosin 91 rifles, made in Wiener Arsenal under facility E.A.IX the difference to russian samples is in straight cut in socket instead of 30degree cut on origin russian M91 bayonets, dimmensions are identical , the end of tip of blade is sharp mashined not with typical screwdriver end. The other end of blade attached to socket is not contoured .The condition of similar pieces are not extra, but are harder to find as russian bayonets, this was found in Vienna show about 3 years ago. The price was very moderate. Is on the top of the previous picture with 4 bayonets from 23.august with the austrian ersatz sheath metall scabbard completed. MRD of socket is 15mm

Edited 7 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[4thGordons]

Hi Andy,

A couple more examples for you to cast your expert eye over. I only just received these and the light outside is bad so I just have these pics for now: (might have time to get some better ones tomorrow)

 

And then this one which is a type I did not have until now:

 

and side by side:

The white on the scabbard is the remains of an old circular paper sticker (I will try and remove it but it appears very stuck on!)

I would be interested if you can make anything out of what I assume are unit markings on the pommel and the crosspiece.

Chris

 

Edited 17 September , 2021 by 4thGordons