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Bayonets of Austro-Ugrian Empire


AndyBsk
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Thanks for nice words.

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Yes, I agree, Andy has studied Austrain Bayonets and other weapons for many years.

That can only be from a Passion for the subject for all the knowledge and experience he shows. Keep up the great work

 

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Thanks for nice words, Steve, certainly Your german collection is much more interesting as german items are focused by collectors for 5 decades, same its complete with rifles which increase the value. i had luck that my collector friend was focused on rifles, so i could anytime look with my bayonets to his rifles and proof the attachement on real one, same as in long time of collecting i could meet some really expert on rifle production like Mr.Hintermeier from Austria and some his Friends. Dont forget that was 15 years in BCN US bayonet forum, really great names there.

For presenting even a worse condition piece, used postwar civilian, here my ersatz german M95 that was used as chisel  for wall damage by a mason, and was hammered totally on pommel.

ersgerM95.JPG.f3b195b7344964d0ff447dc95f5291dd.JPG

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Surprisingly, it still in one piece

Yes, like I said, all those years, 10 years in that “Chezk?” Forum, with 15 as well in BCN,  Bayonet Collectors Network, some big name collectors and authors and how many years here, GWF and others. As I said, it has to be a Passion for the subject that drives you. 
Keep up the good work

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Posted (edited)

We are old sweats already, unfortunally bayonet collecting for 37 years,haha.This area is not so typical for me, only with austrian M1895, as i was 20 years focused on german S84/98 post 1934 production and CS bayonets production.

Thanks Steve for sharing Yours great german collection here, as i learned a lot about the german samples that are not so obvious here in central Europe area.

Edited by AndyBsk
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  • 2 weeks later...

Coming to this late having learned a lot

My three examples: 2 fairly standard Hungarian produced bayonets (one with an electro-penciled serial number on the crossguard suggesting much later use) and an Austrian NCO bayonet made by a slightly less common maker, with what appears to be a period frog.

I am on the look out for an example with the sight blade on the muzzle ring to go with my carbine.

IMG_0333.jpg.f9611505a7ec3e70a1ca570f5373740b.jpg

IMG_0326.jpg.1068f59c7d904f3ff47db8c144ba6fd0.jpg  IMG_0327.jpg.4e5808eea241d40b380450eac6fb2c51.jpg

 

IMG_0329.jpg.a650c2fa24a62d4770e2975cff772460.jpg

IMG_0330.jpg.eac2fa8f094f15f24e998a856c0804f3.jpg IMG_0331.jpg.bc0dea2fe4f882b7ae97fae1c6b3e1b4.jpg

 

Chris

PS I just bought a collection of about 75 photographs which appear to be almost all from the Austro-Hungarian empire. I got them hoping they were Hungarian but it turns out many of them have Czech writing/postmarks on them and some of them are clearly from 1918/19/20 and the early days of Czechoslovakian independence - the connection here being a lot of them show Mannlicher rifles and bayonets.

Here are a couple of examples where bayonets are visible:

no3.jpg.060d940219f5b49c23aa486903adad31.jpg

no1.jpg.63e1a500f87b533ea454dda5bd228c5c.jpg  no2.jpg.f96719867df2926a03ad40ddfc5135b6.jpg

 

 

 

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Very nice,the most interesting bayonet is the left one NCO,as in origin condition,its a first austria republic piece,any stamp on pommel?the both Budapest pieces are already bulgarian refurbishments. The period pictures are nice,yes the czech native is greetings his parents on the second period picture with the M88/90 bayonet on side.You could send to pm the backside when czech language on backside of the cards.

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Hi Andy - I will PM the reverse of these cards - although one is very damaged. There are quite a few interesting pictures and about 50/75 are crammed with writing. I don't think the pictures have any relationship to each other (there are small groups of 2 or 3 which show the same people or are by the same photographer) but in general it seems this was someone's collection of Czech themed cards.

I have been working through them looking at postmarks and place-names.

Thank you for the comments/info on my bayonets!

Chris

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Posted (edited)

Ok Chris i will answer to PM, the cards here are little small to good view of bayonets, the first photo of various soldiers looks like the right soldier have a Werndl? bayonet for NCO with knot? and interesting is the last photo, the soldier looks like have a mexican M14 scabbard round knob of scabbard with M95 bayonet, this combination could be realised by photo taking, anyway there exist rifles M14 that were used from export bunch to Colombia and Mexico which were confiscated by Army in Steyr. and more detailed photo of soldier bayonet here would help.

The bulgarian refurbishments with Budapest bayonets, unfortunally have the hooks of scabbards replaced by reworks, so is no possible to say who made the scabbards.

Edited by AndyBsk
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On 4thGordons.  Chris post, the hooked NCO, what company does the letters stand for. Also, that Eagle. There were and ate so many different eagles, regular and double headed. This one. Was it shared by Hungarie and Austria? I know they were partners

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Posted (edited)

The NCO bayonet has a postwar austrian first republic eagle proof, which is only one head and wout the visible parts as imperial apple and zepter in claws. The eagle has sicle and hammer in claws but is not visible on the die. the maker is Stf. for Staats Fabrik, Wien.

here a history of austrian crests:

http://www.staatswappen.at/en/chronicle-of-the-coat-of-arms/

Edited by AndyBsk
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Thanks for the info and link Andy

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Posted (edited)

Nr.13 bayonet for carbine M1890 used by cavalry, the carbine was not developed to wear a bayonet as in that time cavalry was equiped with sabres, so in period of WW1 as cavalry was dismounted and used as infantry the old M1890 carbines got a new socket bayonet most real inspired by Mosin socket arangement. This bayonet was produced in small numbers by Wiener Arsenal in production facility nr.IX, Erzeugungs Abteilung IX, on socket marked E.A.IX. I personally dont have similar piece in collection, but added a austrian collector Friend piece here. The scabbard is mostly ww1 period of simplifyed production wout ball finial, the presented frog is probably a bulgarian copy of WW1 web frog used by Austria Ugria. MRD of socket is 16mm,socket lenght is 65mm, blade lenght about 255mm from book of J.Smid.

440993116_ChWiersatzM90b(1).JPG.059aa714afd00bd30baf579998ef4fea.JPG

Edited by AndyBsk
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I really need to get that book “ To the Hilt “

Just studying here. So the M86 rifle, like I have is standard Austrain rifle in 11mm, also sold to Chili contract........ These had standard blade down bayonet looking similar in profile to the M95 bayonet in pommel and guard.........   The M 88 rifle was basically an 86 with new slimmer barrel, new caliber and new sights. The88 bayonet was an 86 with new cross guard with smaller MRD .       The M88/90 was again, an upgraded rifle, new magazine, caliber?  And the 88/90 was last of the standard blade down model.      The bayonet M88/95 was first of blade up, leading to the model M95 family of bayonets.

I know you not too into the rifles, but I not sure what the difference in the 88/90. And 88/95 rifles?? You showed that even the old Werndl rifle was used in Austria, guards, border and other. The 88/90. And 88/95 were both a lot better that the Werndl, Did Austria use these rifles in same way?

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Posted (edited)

The development hangs with the powder power increasing, when started M1886 it was succesfull runner of M1885 Mannlicher design approved for unit testing trials, the caliber was 11mm and powder in cartridges was normal black powder as used by muzzleloaders for last 3 centuries, the cartridge was when correctly remembered a normal central fire Werndl 11mm M1867/77. 

So in 1888 as already by Germany Gew88 and French M1886 was developed and used the minor gas/smoke powder used and reduced the caliber to 8mm, as already was from Steyr delivered to Portugal 8mm rifles since 1887, was stopped the production of M1886 for austrian army and moved to the new cartridge called M88, so the remains of army contract was delivered with newer M88 rifles. Unfortunally the continuos upgrade to better smokeless powder caused that in 1890 was upgraded the cartridge of 8x50R to 8x52R to so the newer rifles were called M88/90 as with different sights from old M88, the nitro powder ended this special transition period with new cartridge of M.93 and standart size of 8x50R. So from that time was made only M1890 modell rifle by all arsenals, by Bayonets designation was used both terms so M88 and M88/90 and M90 bayonets could be attached on all version of that rifles also on M88, M88/90 with changed chamber and sights and newer M90 rifles made for brand new cartridge. All were 16,5mm bright on muzzle.

I should mentioned that all army old M1886 got post 1890 a new M90 barell with outside dimmension of M1886, so the M1886/90 is that rifle used by Austria.

The M90/95 rifle has only new barell that is equiped with new M95 barell with new M95 sights on it,  but have a standart size of MRD as M90 rifle also 16,5mm. It was changed the barells when it was damaged or shooted out, this was done mainly in WW1 or prewar, as already M1888 15years in duty.

So now to Your rifle, as 1886 the design of was interesting to compare single loaders so in post period there was many parts used for army contract but not delivered as army changed to M888 design, so the large number of obsolete M1886 were brought to commerzial market and some countries buyed it one of it was Chile.

M1888/90 and M1890/95 rifles were used as normal front fights with same cartridge as M95. So by all fight units. 

The easiest way to deciphere M88/90 rifles are the added side plates with new shooting dimmension on back sighting, inside could be determine by chamber measuring.

M88-90sights.jpg.e38760dcf0954ace5ed0c9a43ea232a9.jpg

Edited by AndyBsk
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I was lucky enough to (separately) purchase a relic MANNLICHER M1895 rifle and a bayonet that fits. The bayonet has some nice markings to the frog and clear maker markers (as well as some green paint on the sheath under the frog). 

0250A241-6E51-45F0-9C1E-56A6CBECF0E1.jpeg

7E6F719B-11EA-4DDC-A924-AEF46280337C.jpeg

A7D143B8-6363-41A0-95EA-8DD47388B1D8.jpeg

Edited by Graham Topham
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Posted (edited)

Looks more like short rifle M95 in relic condition from front sight shape i would think is a hungarian M95/31 in cal. 8x56R,the bayonet is proper type with  additional sight on barell ring made in Budapest but i assume its a imperial piece, made prior 1916,You should look at buttplate and pommel for marking?,same as blade should be proofed on other side as is the Budapest FGGY stamp. Frog is mostly romanian origin so probably not fully correct here, should be carved by owner initials AM ,the AD proof could be  maker, when green scabbard paint the hungarian spure would be real too, it should be visible the color of paint. On short rifle is missing one part of wooden foreguard and the lower ring is wrongly mounted on.

Edited by AndyBsk
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Thanks for your time and help there. That clears it up for me!😊

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bayonet nr.14 called with rifle M14 as for confiscating from the production facility for war needs, to this time i presented only austrian army accepted arms types for army and now should be presented bayonets that were used by austrian army on various places as confiscated directly prior export to various countries in armories in Steyr and Budapest. There was confiscated identical design of M1895 for Bulgaria in 1914, but too large ammounts of mexican and colombian M1912 rifles (copy of Gew98 Mauser) in caliber 7x57R which should be normally delivered to Mexico and Colombia in 1914, anyway it was payed properly by state in armories for duty in austro ugrian army. 

The bayonet have identical 25cm blade as Chilean M1895, low positioned ring with 15.5mm inner ring diameter and locking distance typical for Gew.98 system even used short only 3cm slot instead of german 4cm long used wout barell ring.

Here is identical piece presented as was Mexican and Colombian M14, only as i dont have these pieces, so identical version was delivered to Chile as M1912. Difference is the lack of RM proof on mexican bayonets and strange serial number on crossguard, the OEWG for Steyr proof is on blade ricasso.

chileM12a2.jpg.e1a4e966b229dce36e49c18488092b78.jpg

When You look at Chris presented period picture on 22july, this type of scabbard was used by the Landsturm soldier with M95 bayonet inside on last picture visible.

Edited by AndyBsk
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Here is the pic again.

no2.jpg.f96719867df2926a03ad40ddfc5135b6.jpg

@AndyBsk I have examples of the Chilean bayonets I would be happy to photograph them if posting them would not distract from your thread?

Chris

Edited by 4thGordons
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No problem You could add it here Chris, or start a new thread, what is for You the best. Chilean bayonets and rifles probably was never used by Austria as complete contract was delivered prior 1914. All is described by H.Hintermeier in booklet In der Stunde der Not.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Andy

I will get out the Chilean bayonets to show.

In the meantime - what about this one? Totally without makers marks that I can find. It would appear to resemble the M14 you posted above (and is also generally very similar to the Chilean M1912 but without any markings)

There is a mis-matched serial on the pommel and scabbard stud.

Dimensions

  1. Blade 250mm
  2. Overall 380mm
  3. Blade thickness (at hilt) 6mm
  4. Slot length 28-30mm (pommel is curved)
  5. MRD 16mm

 

bayo.jpg.9dd14a020cca3c2fe5b08e1b1f071874.jpg

bayo2.jpg.b36e4a617c761baf52085ce79508326c.jpg   bayoscab.jpg.8088d07e07dec72bb4870202c09cf1dc.jpg

scab1.jpg.0fb4ffbf976a57e856b529a1abb1d16b.jpg

pommle.jpg.970be8c18d1946534b8b1ca3f2c72685.jpg

 

Chris

Edited by 4thGordons
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OK so here is a bit of a line up - Chilean M1895, M1895, M1912, Unmarked M1914? (above) and Siamese M1888

Chilean-added.jpg.bd98d8dbee1f084aecb93ab89c8409ec.jpg

Chilean M1895, Chilean M1895, Chilean M1912, unmarked, Siamese M1888

Chilean-compare.jpg.edb95d12a40639257be8cff0387aa5c6.jpg 

Chilean M1912 (left) Unmarked (M1914?) (right)

 

Chliean-Crest.jpg.2bbb276268947a55bfb34e038a0e154b.jpg

Chilean M1895 and M1912

Stamp1.jpg.5cfa2ac0b383d174148f03808b4d7f58.jpg

Stamp2.jpg.508d97d6197786a54c9cc2db9116af28.jpg

Comparing M1895 and M1912

 

 

Chilean-double.jpg.9ca9dd1d9ac12cb595b1d37421dde00c.jpg

Chilean-obverse.jpg.90a2951b141327194986e63552497d1e.jpg

Double side markings on second Chilean M1895

 

Chris

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The unmarked one is colombian M12 ,after refurbish as there are screw instead of rivets on handle.F prefix is too rework in 50ies , done when rifles were converted to 30-06 caliber.

M1895 chilean were not used probably in WW1, the austrian delivery is probably from spare parts contract, chilean M1912 were delivered prior end of 1913, when there was not any sign of start WW1. Nice bayonets.

Edited by AndyBsk
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The big differ between these Chilean 1912,  14. And Austrain M95 is blade up bs blade down, even from same maker

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