Pauper's grave for drowned soldier. Why?

[depaor01]

Evening all,

 

I've come across two similar accounts of the 1915 drowning of a Royal Irish Rifles serviceman at a local Dublin canal (Clondalkin).
Two soldiers and an officer were at the inquest but could not identify the body. The Military authorities seem to have declined to have anything to do with his burial.
He seems to have ended up in a pauper's grave.
I have trawled newspaper archives but cannot find any more info about this case.

My questions are:
Why would the military disown a soldier's remains?

Should he have been entitled to a "Known Unto God" headstone?

 

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes, a bizarre  set of circumstances.

Have we discussed his case before, maybe on Tom's thread?

The circumstances sound familiar to me.

Presumably with his identity unknown, and a pauper's grave burial, there can't have been any relatives to submit his details to CWGC.

Unless the reality is even more bizarre, -that he might have been a civilian dressed in a military uniform, then surely he is entitled to CWGC commemoration.

[depaor01]

Thanks Dai, I do hope Tom spotted this one, and yes that thought struck me that he could have been a civilian in Khaki.

Indeed that would explain the death of a "soldier" with no corresponding report of an AWOL Serviceman whose regiment was known.

Dave

[Jervis]

22 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Unless the reality is even more bizarre, -that he might have been a civilian dressed in a military uniform, then surely he is entitled to CWGC commemoration.

😁. True, some bizarre CWGC rules. 
 

I don’t think there was any Royal Irish Rifles unit based in Dublin at the time. The man was probably on furlough (and recorded as deserted?) or ex. Solider, civilian? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes.

Tom posted about him 2 yrs ago!

 

[depaor01]

Great work Dai - thanks for that, and well spotted.

 

The newspaper cutting in Tom's query gives more detail than the ones I found, and I did consider the three Unknown graves on Grangegorman (on which I left floral tributes some time ago). I didn't look at the death records because I believed they would not include military deaths. Good to see he's recorded somewhere.

 

I'm still getting the impression that the military authorities very deliberately left the burial of this poor man to the civil powers for whatever reason.

Another puzzle: Today the 9th Lock on the Grand Canal is right beside a large secondary road and historical maps show it was no different in 1915. Here it is in 1912:

 

The canal had, and still has, a towpath so presumably a decent amount of footfall in the area.

So how was it possible for a body to be in such a place for long enough to be in an "advanced state of decomposition" when found? 

 

I'm so glad Tom and the sleuths of the GWF have looked at this one. 

 

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

I think there are some fairly simple if ruthless rules at play here.  With the hard nosed financial protocols of the time a military funeral (which ranges from a simple coffin and headstone to something more ceremonial) can only be acceded to at public expense (the important bit) if the body of the deceased is positively identified.  It wouldn’t be enough to simply be dressed in uniform.  There would need to be a match between a missing soldier and identification by someone who knew him, although if personal documents had been found and perhaps a physical feature like a tattoo, birthmark or missing finger, that might have been sufficient on the balance of probabilities if the facial features could not be determined because of decomposition (albeit that’s just my speculation).  In the absence of these though it would have been quite normal to treat the body as a pauper.  We have to be careful to not look at these things through the social prism of today’s attitudes and morals.  There was no state health service free at point of delivery, death was cheap and an every day event seen everywhere quite openly in a way that it isn’t today.  Public funds were carefully guarded and taxation on a different scale.  Attitudes and rules were not the same.  It was an era when Victoria Cross holders were regularly buried in paupers graves.  During my own service the MOD refused to pay for a serving soldier’s funeral and headstone because he was killed in a road accident.  It was only after a fuss in newspapers that a military charity stepped in to pay in support of his impecunious family.

Edited 17 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

Drowning seems to be quite a common occurrence for Great War soldiers. I know in those days many could not swim, and combing with alcohol would make matters worse. But I do wonder how many of these unfortunate incidents were a case of suicide. 

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, depaor01 said:

 

Another puzzle: Today the 9th Lock on the Grand Canal is right beside a large secondary road and historical maps show it was no different in 1915. Here it is in 1912:

 

The canal had, and still has, a towpath so presumably a decent amount of footfall in the area.

So how was it possible for a body to be in such a place for long enough to be in an "advanced state of decomposition" when found? 

 

 

Even today some sections of the canal contain a lot of reeds and greenery which could easily conceal a body for a period of time. 

[Jervis]

12 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes.

Tom posted about him 2 yrs ago!

 

Can you tell me what page is the information on?
That is a long running thread and clicking the link does not bring me to the relevant section. I think it is bringing me to the last page of the thread that I read. 
 

Thank you

[museumtom]

 

Click on the words after the small M in Green in my previous post.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Tom,

 

How are ye keeping?

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Jervis said:

Can you tell me what page is the information on?
That is a long running thread and clicking the link does not bring me to the relevant section. I think it is bringing me to the last page of the thread that I read. 
 

Thank you

I can’t find it either.  All these Twitter style multiple links are confusing.

[museumtom]

Good David good, thanks for asking. Starting the Chemo next week.

[museumtom]

Right, lets try again. In my previous post 3 hours ago click on the tip of the arrow.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Glad to hear it Tom. Good Luck.

Here is the link  to Tom's post as a link rather than a graphic:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/186500-i-need-your-help-again-lads-and-lassies/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-2756182

 

For those that can't follow links, it's on page 17...

 

[The Scorer]

"It was an era when Victoria Cross holders were regularly buried in paupers graves."

 

Yes, indeed; the only VC holder to be buried in Newport is Colour Sergeant John Byrne VC DCM of the 68th Foot (later the Durham Light Infantry). He committed suicide in 1879 after injuring a young man who he thought was insulting the VC, and was the subject of a siege in his lodgings during which he shot himself. He didn't have any family locally, and it's unknown whether he had living relatives back home in Ireland, so he was buried in an unmarked grave. It was only in the 1990s, when the Regiment found out where he was, that he was given a headstone.    

[Bernard_Lewis]

If I can clarify one or two points: 

 

Certainly after the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834 it usually did fall to the local Board of Poor Law Guardians to bury unclaimed bodies. This was done for "known" paupers (typically someone who died in the local workhouse) but it could include e.g. bodies washed ashore that were unidentified/unclaimed by family or friends.

 

Poor Law Unions usually selected an "approved" undertaker after a tendering process, setting out the *minimum* standards for coffin, shroud etc and awarding the contract to the cheapest bidder. 

 

Though it is usual to refer to "pauper's graves" the reality was that a pauper might find himself buried in a grave containing numerous bodies of e.g. still-born children. Such graves were usually referred to as "common graves" by church and municipal authorities. They might include paupers but we're not limited to such folk.

 

Bernard

[depaor01]

2 hours ago, museumtom said:

Good David good, thanks for asking. Starting the Chemo next week.

Best of luck Tom. I'm rootin' for ya.

Dave

[Keith_history_buff]

I am aware of a French fusilier marin who was wounded in 1914, evacuated to Woolwich where he died of his wounds, and thereafter appears to have been interred in a pauper's grave in the locality.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Glad to hear it Tom. Good Luck.

Here is the link  to Tom's post as a link rather than a graphic:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/186500-i-need-your-help-again-lads-and-lassies/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-2756182

 

For those that can't follow links, it's on page 17...

 

Thank you Dai, that’s what I was hoping for.  Much appreciated.

 

Afternote:  reading Tom’s findings and the contemporaneous reports it seems to me that based upon the burden of proof required at the time the military were entirely correct (by regulations) to have demurred from paying the costs of interment.

Edited 17 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Margaretnolan]

4 hours ago, museumtom said:

Good David good, thanks for asking. Starting the Chemo next week.

 

Sorry to hear you’re not well Tom..rooting for you too.

 

Margaret

[depaor01]

Thank you all for this input, and especially Tom who came across this story before I did. May this unknown man Rest in Peace wherever he lies, and whoever he is.

[museumtom]

Thank you Margaret and David.

 

[Jervis]

On 17/04/2021 at 14:51, museumtom said:

Good David good, thanks for asking. Starting the Chemo next week.

 

Sorry to hear that news Tom, best of luck.