Heres a Couple of Tricky Fellows To Find

[toofatfortakeoff]

No 1.  Old Contemptible  Edward Basil Harding 1/1 Monmouthshire ( maybe later 5th Battalion) Regiment France September 1914  Wrote me 10 pages letter all very precise, dates etc.  in 1988, of life in the trenches 1914, 1915.  

I just wondered if anyone else has heard of him.   I think he may have had a diary. He was at 92, still working as a solicitor or clerk in his office, coming to work on a zimmer frame  in central London.  He attended the last OC lunch meetings at pubs in London-I suspect this was organised by the WFA

or its members.  

He appeared in Daily Mail article on Nov 13th 1988 with a photo-I will put it in here. tomorrow. 

Im just putting 200 pages of veteran stories into what may not be enough for a book.

No MIC so far or service record.  

 

Second man Harold Hannan 9th East Surrey Regiment.  he gave me an extract of his papers, which he was to release after his death in book form. 

Shame if it didn't as he was very learned and poetic.  There are 3 Hannans in the East Surreys in the MiCs. Could be a middle name he used. 

 

Again, bit of a blank. Did his book appear, or does someone have it? Photos of these two chaps would be very welcome.  

 

Number 3, more for a photo, Walter Reeve or Reeves Special Brigade (poison gas) Royal Engineers (Corporal probably) The Special Brigade has been mentioned before on this forum. 

 

All info gratefully received. 

 

 

 

 

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

 

In a 1914 -1915 Corp of Lancers medal page I found a Pte 9524,  H Hannan, 9th East Surrey Regiment, Disembarked 5\10\1915

 

Remarks-

L/16299 Pte 2/1 Surrey Yeo

Class Z AR 7\2\1919

 

Cheers John

 

 

[johnmelling1979]

For Walter Reeves I'm wondering if  this chap is still active

 

Cheers John

 

[toofatfortakeoff]

51 minutes ago, johnmelling1979 said:

Hello

 

In a 1914 -1915 Corp of Lancers medal page I found a Pte 9524,  H Hannan, 9th East Surrey Regiment, Disembarked 5\10\1915

 

Remarks-

L/16299 Pte 2/1 Surrey Yeo

Class Z AR 7\2\1919

 

Cheers John

 

 

Yea I found him as a Lancet in MiCs he didn't mention that he'd been a Lancer John thanks    

Is that Walter? Possibility! Will look in morning. Both may have records at Star & Garter...

[IPT]

I suspect that Edward Basil Harding had perhaps changed his name at some stage?

[toofatfortakeoff]

13 minutes ago, IPT said:

I suspect that Edward Basil Harding had perhaps changed his name at some stage?

Interesting theory. 

[toofatfortakeoff]

I found it odd, that such a learned man never took a commission. four from his unit moved up from the ranks in 1914 according to his memoir. He didn't as far as I know go for move up the ranks. Here's for the present a poor photo. The article says Rifle Brigade, but he signed the original letter off, if I was correct, 5th Monmouthshire Regt. which is I believe  wrong. 

 

[IPT]

So what clues are there? I can only find one mention of an Edward Basil Harding, on the London electoral register, living in Kensington in 1937.  Was he aged 92 in c1888? When did he die?  Do you have any information on his place of birth, or any relatives? 

 

I've had a long day, so not on top form, but I can't see him.

 

 

[toofatfortakeoff]

7 hours ago, IPT said:

So what clues are there? I can only find one mention of an Edward Basil Harding, on the London electoral register, living in Kensington in 1937.  Was he aged 92 in c1888? When did he die?  Do you have any information on his place of birth, or any relatives? 

 

I've had a long day, so not on top form, but I can't see him.

 

 

Morning the newspaper article says 92 in 88.  

I am pretty certain he was living in Uckfield Sussex. 

Banned from driving in 1937 owing to a blackout caused by concussion from the war-that may be a news item. 

Home service after 1915

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 hours ago, IPT said:

I suspect that Edward Basil Harding had perhaps changed his name at some stage?

Yes I think that's a strong possibility.

The combinations of Edward, Basil & Harding return nothing  in searches of FreeBMD.

No birth in England & Wales between1870 -1905.

No death between 1988-1992.

 

On Ancestry, no entry in the 1939 register.

 

There are however some Edward B. Hardings:

A bith in Monmouthshire in 1895 (possibly died Monmouthshire 1948)

A birth in Dorset 1895,(possibly died Dorset 1965).

A marriage in Monmouthshire, and in Dorset in 1924, Kensington 1932,

 

Tricky indeed.

What is your source that names him as Edward Basil Harding and the details of his still working in his 90s?

Edited 17 April , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[toofatfortakeoff]

Heres a photo of him, link only, as Ghetty or whoever will charge £150

I believe this is the same pub I went to see them all in. 

 

https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/two-old-contemptibles-enjoy-a-drink-together-after-the-ceremony-at-the-cenotaph-edward-harding-right-and-francis-sumpter-1809593a

[toofatfortakeoff]

My source is me.  The letter that he sent me, thats my own memory of him..I recallthinking howamazed I was, Im sure he would be just shuffling papers at that point, but I went to see an 86 year old solicitor myself just yesterday for documentation  

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

What is your source that names him as Edward Basil Harding and the details of his still working in his 90s?

 

[PRC]

On 17/04/2021 at 08:37, toofatfortakeoff said:

Morning the newspaper article says 92 in 88.  

I am pretty certain he was living in Uckfield Sussex. 

 

So born circa 1896. The only potential match in England & Wales could be an Edward Boyer Harding, (there are no Hardin's or Harden's), whose birth was registered in the Wandsworth District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1896.

 

The death of an Edward Boyer Harding, born 8th December 1896, was recorded in the Uckfield District of Sussex in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1992. (Edit 18/04/21 - should read 1990). No obvious Probate.

 

Filling in some of the gap, a 4 year old Edward B. Harding, born Battersea, London, was recorded living at 51 Sisters Avenue, Battersea, Middlesex. That address fell within the Wandsworth Civil Registration District. This was the household of his parents Arthur B., (aged 38, a Fire Insurance Company Official, born Elvestham, Hampshire) and Helen C., (aged 36, born Bunbury, Cheshire).  The couple have another son, Harold J.B., (aged 1 and born Battersea). The family also have a live in servant.

 

I couldn’t check what the B stood for from the birth register, as that shows a Harold John B Harding, was registered in the Wandsworth District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1900.

 

The death of a Harold John B Harding was recorded in the Exeter District of Devon in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1986. A check of the 1986 Civil Probate shows an entry for a Sir Harold John Boyer Harding of 37 Monmouth Street, Topsham, Exeter, who died on the 27th March 1986.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Harding&yearOfDeath=1986&page=4#calendar

 

Going back to the family on the 1901 Census, the next event was the death of an Arthur Boyer Harding, aged 39, was recorded in the Wandsworth District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1902.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales his widow, Helen Clinton Harding, (aged 46, born Bunbury, Cheshire and living on Private Means), was recorded as a visitor at a household at Basingstoke. The householder was a Bank Manager and his wife.

 

There is no obvious match for Edward or Harold on this census.

 

So if he was born 8th December 1896, then unless he lied about his age he couldn’t have joined up until December 1914, so wouldn’t have been in the trenches in 1914.

 

So have we been able to identify which of Edwards service numbers he started with and from there establish a date of enlistment. Could he have enlisted pre-war.

 

If he lied about his age to join up pre-war then:-

He could have changed the Boyer to Basil in order to disguise his origins.

But he could also have changed his entire name, and therefore the Lancers MiC may not be him.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 18 April , 2021 by PRC
Amend year error

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, toofatfortakeoff said:

My source is me.  The letter that he sent me,

He signed the letters as Edward Basil Harding, or were they on headed paper, or he says that his name is Edward Basil Harding?

Can you give the specifics?

[PRC]

And from Harold Harding wikipedia page

 

(Harold) Harding was born in Wandsworth, London to Arthur Boyer Harding and his wife Helen Clinton Lowe, daughter of William Lowe, the vicar of Bunbury. His father died in 1902 and the family spent the next four years in South Africa with his mother's sister and her husband. Harold and his brother were educated at their uncle's expense at Christ's Hospital, Horsham and Harold entered the City and Guilds College (a part of Imperial College London) in 1917. He served as a full-time Officers' Training Corps cadet in 1918 before resuming his studies in 1919.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Harding

 

Harold also published an autobiography  - "It's Warmer down below" - he was a tunnelling man ! So looks like writing ran in the family.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[clk]

Hi,

 

Is anyone able to confirm the cap badge ID, and medal entitlement?

 

 

 

 

Regards

Chris

[corisande]

 

...duty £1,923 6s. Bd.). Probate of the has been granted to Bryan Buckley Sharp, of 44, Harley Street, London, physician, Edward Boyer Harding, of 33, York Mansions, Prince of Wales Road, Battersea Park, London insurance official, nephews, and Arthur Martin

28 August 1936 - Somerset Guardian and Radstock Observer - Radstock, Somerset, England

[Mark1959]

The medals look to me like WW1 trio, WW2 Defence medal (probably for Home Guard / ARP or some such qualifying sevice) and a George V LS&GC medal (the light outside strips on the ribbon are indicative). One concern about the LS&GC is the suspender is wrong. Possibly a fix following breakage of original. The cap badge - repeated under the medals - is not Monmouthshire Regiment.

Edited 17 April , 2021 by Mark1959

[PRC]

On 17/04/2021 at 20:24, PRC said:

Harold and his brother were educated at their uncle's expense at Christ's Hospital, Horsham and Harold entered the City and Guilds College (a part of Imperial College London) in 1917.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Edward Harding, born "Clapham, London", who was recorded as a resident scholar at a boarding school at West Horsham, Sussex.

 

According to the IWM Lives of the Great War webpage for the Roll of Honour of Christ's Hospital there is also a separate community for the survivors - unfortunately I couldn't find it.

That and the Christ's Hospital website makes reference to "In Their Own Words", a 48 page booklet containing first hand reports of Old Blues serving in the various theatres during the Great War, compiled by David Miller. The reports are taken from contemporary editions of The Blue and other published sources, and from original letters and manuscripts held in the CH museum. It also contains an updated Roll of Honour, listing the details of all Old Blues known to have died as a result of the war, including their final resting place.

https://www.chmuseum.org.uk/authenticated/Browse.aspx?BrowseID=1163&tableName=b_Browse

It's available here http://www.chwarmemorial.org.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_referencematerials&columnName=OriginalFileName&recordId=2

But no mention of Edward that I could readily find.

 

The Museums webpage is here http://www.chwarmemorial.org.uk/

 

Going through the various documents on that site, the edition of The Christ's Hospital Magazine, ("The Blue") for February 1915 in it's round up of House News had this interesting reference to an E.B. Harding of Peele B. House.

Source: http://www.chwarmemorial.org.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_referencematerials&columnName=OriginalFileName&recordId=64

 

And with that I back-tracked to the October 1914 where there was a Roll of Honour of those then serving.

 

Source: http://www.chwarmemorial.org.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_referencematerials&columnName=OriginalFileName&recordId=60

 

Of the 5 Battalions that made up the London Rifle Brigade, only the 1/5th went to France, landing 5th November 1914, in a timescale that would have allowed him to be reported writing from France in February 1915. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

 

As he left school in 1913, he may well have been working in London and thus joined this Territorial Force Battalion at the age of 17 and a half, (May 1914) and so might have been considered trained enough to go overseas.

 

That leads to the Medal Index card for Edward Boyer Harding, 1/5th London Regiment, landed France 4th November 1914. He was initially 9717, then renumbered 300175 and then a postwar number of 6561007. His MiC notes the award of a Territorial Efficiency Medal at some point in 1927 or later - although sounds a bit late as his war years would have counted double.

(Image courtesy of Ancestry)

 

The 300175 service number would have come from the 1917 TF renumbering - the number block allocated to the 5th Battalions of the London Regiment was 300001 to 320000.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Bordercollie]

On 17/04/2021 at 20:55, Mark1959 said:

The medals look to me like WW1 trio, WW2 Defence medal (probably for Home Guard / ARP or some such qualifying sevice) and a George V LS&GC medal (the light outside strips on the ribbon are indicative). One concern about the LS&GC is the suspender is wrong. Possibly a fix following breakage of original. The cap badge - repeated under the medals - is not Monmouthshire Regiment.

I would have thought the Territorial Efficiency Medal is a better match for the fifth medal in the group.

 

[Mark1959]

"I would have thought the Territorial Efficiency Medal is a better match for the fifth medal in the group."

Agreed. Shape and suspender looks more likely

[Bordercollie]

K W Mitchinson's excellent account of the 5th Bn London Regt (LRB) in WW1 gives some further details of E B Harding's service.  He enlisted in P Company (under the pre-war 8 company organisation) in February 1914.  He went to France with 1/5/London on 5th November 1914. He was wounded in April 1915 and was evacuated to England.  He spent some time on recruiting duties at Bunhill Row before joining 3/5/London where he spent the remainder of the war as an instructor.  He rejoined the LRB in 1920 and, according to Mitchinson, from 1921 he was a private in the Calcutta Horse.  I am not sure what to make of that last point!

 

The blazer badge and cap badge in the photograph certainly looks more like the LRB....

 

 

....than the Monmouths.

 

[PRC]

Some potential travel details for Edward Boyer Harding.

 

8 hours ago, PRC said:

His father died in 1902 and the family spent the next four years in South Africa with his mother's sister and her husband.

A 7 year old Edward Boyer Harding sailed from London in 1904 bound for the Cape aboard the Johannesburg. A Harold John Boyer Harding, aged 3, and a Helen Clinton Harding, aged 39, appear to be making the same journey.

 

35 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

He rejoined the LRB in 1920 and, according to Mitchinson, from 1921 he was a private in the Calcutta Horse.

 

A 24 year old E.B. Harding sailed from Liverpool bound for Bombay in 1921 aboard the Elysia.

If the last was Edward Boyer Harding it might explain him joining the Calcutta (Light) Horse.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Mark1959]

There is an arrival back in UK for Edward Boyer Harding in 1925. Insurance official. Aged 29.

Edited 17 April , 2021 by Mark1959

[PRC]

On 16/04/2021 at 21:50, toofatfortakeoff said:

Wrote me 10 pages letter all very precise, dates etc.  in 1988, of life in the trenches 1914, 1915.  

 

Perhaps some of those precise details would help to establish which unit we should be looking at and therefore whether Edward Basil Harding and Edward Boyer Harding are one and the same person.

 

Cheers,

Peter