Interesting things I found in my Great Grandfather's WWI bag

[brandbll]

So I got my Great Grandfather's WWI stuff from my dad. He was an American infantry in the 138th infantry regiment under the 35th division. He fought in the Meuse-Argonne. From what i can tell, he made it 3 days before he was wounded and then out of action. It doesn't look like he went home for a month or two after that either(maybe even longer). Anyways, i have some sort of first aid bag or something of his. Bunch of blood on it. I found among other things this stuff in it.

 

1. Appears to be a dog tag from a german soldier. Tried doing some quick search to find him on like Ancesstry.com and am not having much luck. Looks like he was born in 1882 so he could have had kids. His name was Franz Chudzinski and it looks like from the numbers he was born Oct 10, 1882. Hopefully someone can zoom in and tell me what the rest means, or if that is indeed his birthdate in the first place. 

 

2.)  A patch that appears to be a german patch, and shoulder band. Any idea what they are or mean? There was a number 2 which wasn't in any of my relatives unit numbers.

 

3.) The two round patches, im fairly certain the two colored one is for the 35th division, but im not sure what the other one is.

 

4.) This round metal tin. I haven't tried very hard to get it open, but i don't want to break it and i have no idea what's inside. Any ideas? 

 

My big thing is that tag. Do you think my great grandpa killed that guy? Did people just grab random tags off dead guys lying around for souveneirs? Or did they mingle with prisoners while they were sitting around and maybe they exchanges that stuff? My great grandfather was 17 when he enlisted and 18 when he got to Europe, so he was just a kid still at that point.

 

If you have any ideas on this, i'd gladly appreciate hearing it, or if you have a direction to steer me in too. Any of your expert advice and opinions are much appreciated!

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Sorry, wasn't facing the right way up.

 

[brandbll]

Annnnddd, now I'm finding out that red and white cross might be a KKK patch. Greaaaattttt. Well I'm really hoping someone comes in here and says, "that's also from a German unit." Gonna have to dig into that, this should be fun to look into☹️

[charlie2]

The shoulder strap is from Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 1

 

The dogtag inscription after his name: Fünfhöfen in the 1st Administrative District of Strellno, born 4th October 1882, 2nd Ersatz Bataillon Infanterie Regiment 175, No 2 Company, (His) number on the roll 5918

 

Charlie

 

Edit- he doesn‘t appear in the casualty lists.

Edited 12 April , 2021 by charlie2

[AOK4]

Isn't there anything on the back of the Erkennungsmarke?

 

Jan

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, brandbll said:

Annnnddd, now I'm finding out that red and white cross might be a KKK patch. Greaaaattttt.

Needn't necessarily be an issue.

Many ancient symbols got/get recycled by many along the way.

After all the early Boys Scouts used the swastika as a 'Thanks Badge' etc. - until a swastika was later, in the 1930's, appropriated by another large organisation with much less savoury behaviours than the BS!

:-) M

[Toontraveller]

On 12/04/2021 at 13:30, brandbll said:

Annnnddd, now I'm finding out that red and white cross might be a KKK patch. Greaaaattttt. Well I'm really hoping someone comes in here and says, "that's also from a German unit." Gonna have to dig into that, this should be fun to look into☹️

I think it is a KKK blood cross, but as mentioned lots of insignia have been adopted by other organisations and used for a different purpose for what they were originally intended. 

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, brandbll said:

3. The two round patches, im fairly certain the two colored one is for the 35th division, but im not sure what the other one is.

 

I'd go with that being a 35th Div patch.  The "2" patch is (rather obviously) a Second Army patch.  I did a bit of research a while back on the Santa Fe Division in relation to their arrival in France and training connection with UK 89 Bde ...... and regarding the mystery badge: a clue might be I vaguely recall different Divisional sub-units had different quadrants of the crosshair patch highlighted.  I stand by to be corrected on that. 

 

Edited 12 April , 2021 by TullochArd

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, brandbll said:

4. This round metal tin. I haven't tried very hard to get it open, but i don't want to break it and i have no idea what's inside. Any ideas? 

 

 ..........the attached hangar and small stand on the back suggests to me it may be a travelling photo frame of some sort?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

47 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Boys Scouts used the swastika as a 'Thanks Badge' etc. - until a swastika was later, in the 1930's, appropriated by another large organisation with much less savoury behaviours than the BS!

That's a little unfair on the National Savings movement.

Oh! You mean the other National S******** movement?

[brandbll]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Needn't necessarily be an issue.

Many ancient symbols got/get recycled by many along the way.

After all the early Boys Scouts used the swastika as a 'Thanks Badge' etc. - until a swastika was later, in the 1930's, appropriated by another large organisation with much less savoury behaviours than the BS!

:-) M

Yeah, but I haven't found it was anything else. Unfortunately that's probably what it is. It made me look into it. There was a huge resurgence of KKK in the early 1920s, I mean they were thick with members. The numbers in illinois where my great grandfather lived are pretty staggering, like 100,000 members in that state alone. They basically controlled the vast majority of politicians elected for a couple of years. Then they fizzled out really hard after a bunch of scandals. 

 

I mean, he was probably pretty traumatized by the war and this is also someone who only had a third grade education. He was sort of a drunk ahole to his kids but apparently he turned over a new leaf by the time his grand kids were born and my mom (he's my dad's grandfather) told me he was one of the nicest people she ever met.

 

I guess it's a lesson, being a family historian, sometimes you're going to uncover some stuff you wish weren't true. But you gotta accept it and learn from it. I could have just tossed the patch in the garbage and I don't think anyone would ever know about it. But I'll dig into it more and see if my dad or my aunt know about it(I doubt they do). It does make me wonder why he threw it in that bag of relatively untouched stuff that is all WWI stuff. 

3 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 

 ..........the attached hangar and small stand on the back suggests to me it may be a travelling photo frame of some sort?

Well if that is it I'm going to definitely have to try and open it. It's about a quarter of an inch thick.

[brandbll]

5 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The shoulder strap is from Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 1

 

The dogtag inscription after his name: Fünfhöfen in the 1st Administrative District of Strellno, born 4th October 1882, 2nd Ersatz Bataillon Infanterie Regiment 175, No 2 Company, (His) number on the roll 5918

 

Charlie

 

Edit- he doesn‘t appear in the casualty lists.

So that strap wouldn't have belonged to franz chudzinski?

 

So is that list pretty safe to go by? My overall goal is to try and find this person's relatives and give them back this tag.

[AOK4]

15 minutes ago, brandbll said:

So that strap wouldn't have belonged to franz chudzinski?

 

So is that list pretty safe to go by? My overall goal is to try and find this person's relatives and give them back this tag.

 

Most probably not (he was quite old to have been posted to the guard). I have asked before, but is there anything on the back of the dog tag?

 

I doubt many people in Germany would be interested in the dog tag of their relative (if you can ever find relatives, as Chudzinski was from what is nowadays Poland).

 

[knittinganddeath]

I looked for a POW card and found one for a Franz Chudzinski with the same birthday but in 1880 and wrong regiment :-( The same guy appears in the Verlustlisten and also comes from Strelno country, so very confusing.

Edited 12 April , 2021 by knittinganddeath

[brandbll]

6 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

 

Most probably not (he was quite old to have been posted to the guard). I have asked before, but is there anything on the back of the dog tag?

 

I doubt many people in Germany would be interested in the dog tag of their relative (if you can ever find relatives, as Chudzinski was from what is nowadays Poland).

 

Yeah I haven't forgot about that, I'll need to look when I get home but I don't remember seeing anything. I will for sure get back to you on that. 

 

And yeah, I thought that name didn't seem very german. If I can find them that would be great but if not, whatever I'll hang on to it.

[PhilB]

The dogtag looks like it`s designed to be broken in two if the man dies (or is wounded?)

[brandbll]

42 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

I looked for a POW card and found one for a Franz Chudzinski with the same birthday but in 1880 and wrong regiment :-( The same guy appears in the Verlustlisten and also comes from Strelno country, so very confusing.

Do you have a link to it? I wonder how accurate stuff was back then. Maybe he got transferred to a different Regiment? For as much as I know about the 35th, I don't know what german units would have been on the other side fighting them in that battle. Probably would be a good thing to know.

25 minutes ago, PhilB said:

The dogtag looks like it`s designed to be broken in two if the man dies (or is wounded?)

Yeah, that is exactly what that would be I'm assuming.

[charlie2]

46 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

I looked for a POW card and found one for a Franz Chudzinski with the same birthday but in 1880 and wrong regiment :-( The same guy appears in the Verlustlisten and also comes from Strelno country, so very confusing.

2. Ers. Btl. IR 175 was the unit he did his training with. The information on the dogtag and the information contained in the ICRC records are too alike for it to be anything else but a typo in the ICRC records.

He was taken PoW by the Americans on 26.9.1918 at Cheppy while serving with No.6 Coy IR450, he was suffering from a GSW to the neck. His wife Wladislawa lived, according to the ICRC records, in Fünfhöfen. He is recorded on a list dated 12.7.1919 of Polish PoWs turned over to the Polish Legion.

 

Charlie

[knittinganddeath]

22 minutes ago, brandbll said:

a link to it

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/71481/1/2/ is the one I found, but did Charlie find a different one? None of the reference numbers on that card lead to any existing documents. The only thing of interest was a stamp that says he was repatriated, as Charlie says, on 12 July 1919.

 

Anyway, I guess you can rest a bit easier, knowing your grandfather didn't take it off a dead man.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

The dogtag looks like it`s designed to be broken in two if the man dies (or is wounded?)

It was.  One half was to be placed in the soldiers mouth and then his jaw closed.  The idea (with typical German logic and efficiency) was that unlike the British tags that could be anywhere in the grave and easily disturbed and subsequently separated from the body, the tag would always be inside the skull, a robust part of the body’s remains and less likely to be lost.  The same system was used in WW2.  The other half was returned for unit records and administration.

Edited 12 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, brandbll said:

I guess it's a lesson, being a family historian, sometimes you're going to uncover some stuff you wish weren't true. But you gotta accept it and learn from it.

Never truer words.

:-) M

[brandbll]

Wow! Some great information here! Thank you everyone. Glad to hear he didn't grab it off a dead person. It still makes me wonder why he had it, but that could be a bunch of different reasons I suppose.

 

I found a nice map a while ago about the 35ths movements. Date and place would fit the bill if that's where he was captured. 

 

 

[charlie2]

27 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

None of the reference numbers on that card lead to any existing documents.

The documents do exist but they are not where they should be. The index cards are in the German army file but the documents are in the Austro-Hungarian file, this applies to all references with an AK prefix. All that can be done is to make a note of the AK numbers, return to the search page and change to the A-H file, choose any index card and input the AK numbers as normal. 
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/D/07/01/C_G1_D_07_01_0009/C_G1_D_07_01_0009_0259.JPG/4

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/D/07/01/C_G1_D_07_01_0011/C_G1_D_07_01_0011_0026.JPG/4
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/D/07/01/C_G1_D_07_01_0015/C_G1_D_07_01_0015_0096.JPG/4

 

Charlie

[knittinganddeath]

@charlie2 Thanks for that explanation! I am very grateful to the ICRC for putting their files online...but using them is sometimes an exercise in bashing my head against my desk.

[charlie2]

2 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

but using them is sometimes an exercise in bashing my head against my desk.

The good thing is the more you use the database the softer the desktop becomes. 

[brandbll]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

The good thing is the more you use the database the softer the desktop becomes. 

Hahahaha!🤣🤣 Too funny.

 

Thank you again everyone for the quick responses. I'll let you know what's on the back of that tag and hopefully I can get metal thing open without breaking it.