charlie962 Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 The National Roll volume that Barlow appeared in has a number of other Manchester men in the Gordons, particularly 7th Gordons : Name: J BorlandRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: Border Regiment and 9th Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: P. BuchananRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 2nd Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: C CosgroveRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 7th Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: T DerbyshireRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 7th Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: A FlockhartRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: W GoodwinRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 7th Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: E HallRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: W. C. LucasRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 7th Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: G. MallardRank: Corporal... Ship or Regiment: 3rd Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: T. M. M. MenziesRank: Sergeant... Ship or Regiment: Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: J. W. MortRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 7th Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: A. MurdochRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: Gordon Highlanders.... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: C StewardRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: G. N. LaterRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 1/7th Gordon Highlanders.... Date of Death: 7th, January 1917... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: R AustinRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 3rd Gordon Highlanders... Date of Death: July, 1918... Rolls of Honour & Service Name: J SmithRank: Private... Ship or Regiment: 1/7th Gordon Highlanders... Date of Death: 13th, December 1918... Rolls of Honour & Service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 Similarly Wounded Casualty Lists with HomeTown / Place of Enlistment Manchester include: (both these posts courtesy the Genealogist) Name: G HewittService Number: 3253... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: J HoareService Number: 43465... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: J MarlandService Number: 3257... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: J R MartinService Number: 3362... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: B RaffertyService Number: 6324... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: A G RobinsonService Number: 3382... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: W SmithService Number: 3489... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: J R SouthService Number: 3367... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Publication Year: 1916... Casualty List: Wounded Name: P E TaylorService Number: 3301... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: H TowieService Number: 3266... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 20th December 1916... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: H RowbothamService Number: 242520... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 5th September 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: J WalkerService Number: 13460... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 30th August 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: H TaylorService Number: 12276... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 1st September 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: F BirkenshawService Number: 202828... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 10th November 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: S HutchinsonService Number: 242245... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 12th September 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: J WalkerService Number: 13460... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 14th September 1917... Casualty Status: Previously Reported Wounded, Now Reported Wounded and Not Missing... Name: W RowlinsonService Number: 200797... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 22nd September 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Casualty List: Wounded Name: S CollingsService Number: 290715... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 6th October 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: C T HardyService Number: 203353... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 25th October 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: J DalyService Number: 290767... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 29th October 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: W VareyService Number: 290718... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Daily List: 29th October 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: G HowellService Number: 4444... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Lance-Corporal... Daily List: 8th January 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: H DerbyshireService Number: 3234... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 9th January 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: D GriersonService Number: 3351... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 9th January 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: H OwenService Number: 3377... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 9th January 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Name: A CookeService Number: 3262... Regiment: Gordon Highlanders... Rank: Private... Daily List: 11th January 1917... Casualty Status: Wounded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 This is turning into a PhD on the 7th Battalion! Looking at two of the 1917 casualties we find that the Bn. renumbering to six digits 2907** took place in the first half of 1917 (GWGC images). Patrick Jordan 3342 died of wounds on 29-06-17 as no. 290771, but George Norman Later died as 3218 on 07-01-1917. Both 7th Bn. & from Manchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 GN LATER 3218's entry in National Roll shows the Vimy Ridge title again but pre-Somme. Three months after volunteering in January 1915, he was drafted to the Western Front, where he was in action at various important engagements. He saw much heavy fighting at Hill 60, Ypres II, Festubert, Albert, Ploegsteert Wood, Vimy Ridge, the Somme, Beaucourt, aud Beaumont-Hamel, and made the supreme sacrifice on January 7th, 1917, being killed in action at Courcelette. He was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, and the General Service and Victory Medals. "A costly sacrifice upon the altar of freedom." 74, Everton Road, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 6 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said: Looking at two of the 1917 casualties we find that the renumbering to six digits 2907** took place in the first half of 1917. Patrick Jordan 3342 died of wounds on 29-06-17 as no. 290771, but George Norman Later died as 3218 on 07-01-1917. Both 7th Bn. & from Manchester. I have found that Territorials whose death was not ascertained formally until after the re-numbering although they actually died 1916 were listed often by CWGC with the 1917 renumbering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 16 minutes ago, charlie962 said: GN LATER 3218's entry in National Roll shows the Vimy Ridge title again but pre-Somme. Three months after volunteering in January 1915, he was drafted to the Western Front, where he was in action at various important engagements. He saw much heavy fighting at Hill 60, Ypres II, Festubert, Albert, Ploegsteert Wood, Vimy Ridge, the Somme, Beaucourt, aud Beaumont-Hamel, and made the supreme sacrifice on January 7th, 1917, being killed in action at Courcelette. He was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, and the General Service and Victory Medals. "A costly sacrifice upon the altar of freedom." 74, Everton Road, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester. WOW. That is very close to the more basic summary in J A Barlow's entry! And we know that George Later served right through with the 7th Bn. George Norman Later was a 18 year old fish salesman living with his parents at 74 Everton Road in 1911. Born 3rd December 1892. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INW Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 MANCHESTER AND SALFORD AND THE GORDON HIGHLANDERS. This newspaper photo of the Gordon Highlanders Pipers brings the story of Manchester recruitment to life. From the website of North East Medals I read that 810 men of the 1/7th and 90 men of the amalgamated 6/7th died in WW1. Tragically, and topically, many men recruited from the remote parts of Scotland died from flu etc. whilst training in Bedford. They simply had no resistance to the diseases of the cities. G. L. Brown 3333 1/7th GH has this scroll displayed in the Manchester Imperial War Museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 Fantastic Images INW. Drummer George Brown 3333 earned the only DCM awarded to the 1/7th Battalion in WW1 (others went to the 6/7th for later months of the war). He was mentioned in the WD on 1 Jan 1917 and it was in the LG on 13 Feb 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29940/supplement/1552 N.B. Nine MMs to the 1/7th are listed in the WD at the end of May 1917 and are in the LG of 18 July 1917, inc. Victor Sellar 290267. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 So would this be a fair summary of what has been discussed so far. The opening post relates to the Victory Medal and British War Medal for John Arthur Barlow, Private 3325 Gordon Highlanders then Private 303443 Royal Army Medical Corps. From the information gathered it can probably be said with >99%+ certainty that he enlisted in Manchester, probably on the 19th January 1915, (99% certainty) and almost definitely the period 18th to 20th January 1915, (99.99%+ certainty). Based on an elimination of other likely battalions of the Gordon Highlanders combined with documented evidence that a recruiting party from the 7th Battalion visited the Manchester & Salford area during that time period, it seems almost certain that John Arthur Barlow joined the 7th Battalion. (>99%+ certainty) Men serving with that first line 1/7 Battalion went to France overnight 2nd to 3rd May 1915. The 3rd is the date shown on the MiC for this John Arthur Barlow and his first theatre is shown as France. Barring wounding or otherwise being away from the Battalion, men serving with the Battalion would have fought at the 2nd Battle of Ypres and at the Battle of Festurbert in 1915. The 1/7th Gordon Highlanders were under regular artillery gas shell attack from 21st to 31st July 1916 while serving on the Somme – initially at Caterpillar Wood, then Mametz Wood, Bazentin and High Wood. They were relieved by 6th Gordons on 1st August and only had 10 ORs wounded and 8 killed during the whole of August. The Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917 had the number block 290001 to 315000 allocated to the 7th Battalions of the Gordon Highlanders. (New information 290755 No MiC match National Archive 290756 was previously 3323/7 John Young 290757 was preciously 3324/7 John M. Lally 290758 No MiC match National Archive 290759 was previously 3329 Samuel Watson 290760 was previously 3330/7 Godfrey Bintcliffe 290761 was previously 3332/7 Fred Tomlinson 290762 No MiC match National Archive 290763 was previously 3334/7 John H Brown THEREFORE if 3325 John Arthur Barlow was still with the 7th Battalion at the start of 1917, the only likely new service number is 290758. 3326/7 John McDomald was KiA 27/04/1916. However that still leaves 3327 and 3328 as potential candidates as well.) No date for the issue of the RAMC number. The number is potentially a Territorial Force one, but if it was a Regular Army he could potentially have been home service only. If he was serving with the Territorial Force 2nd Highland Field Ambulance of the 51st (Highland) Division, he would have to have been serving with them at the start of 1917, when other ranks of the Territorial Force received a new service number. That means he would have joined them prior to that. He was discharged to the Class Z Reserve on the 21st May 1919, (1914/15 Star Roll). -------------------- We then have an entry in the National Roll, a private publication containing unverified mini-biographies supplied by the serviceperson themselves or surviving family, etc. This gives us a J.A. Barlow who served as a Private in the Gordon Highanders. This man states he volunteered in December 1914, went to the Western Front four months later and fought in the Battles of Ypres, Festurbert, Loos and Vimy Ridge. He was gassed in the Somme Offensive in August 1916, was invalided to England and on recovery was employed on special duties at various depots in Scotland and Ireland. He was demobilised in April 1919 and his post-war address is given as 4, Duncombe Street, Higher Broughton. The 1918 Absent Voters List has John Arthur Barlow recorded for 4, Duncombe Street. He was recorded as 288092 Private “Sth. Camp, Nig. N.B.” One possibility is a group of men who transferred into the Labour Corps from the Gordon Highlanders with nearby Labour Corps service numbers – 288056, 288061 and 288066. However if he was RAMC at the time of the 1917 renumbering and still with them at the time the Medals were issued, makes it seem unlikely he was with another Corps altogether when the 1918 Absent Voters List was being prepared, late Spring 1918. The 1911 Census of England and Wales has a John Arthur Barlow living in 7 Harriet Street, Higher Broughton with his parents James and Elizabeth and three siblings. His age would suggest a birth year around 1895/96, as well as making him 18 in 1914. There is a James Barlow recorded on the1922 Electoral Roll for the same address. There is no obvious alternative candidate for a J.A. Barlow who served with the Gordon Highlanders in the MiC records. So where do the Military Records and the National Roll Biography match. - Name is John Arthur Barlow - First entered a Theatre of War as a Private in the Gordon Highlanders. - Went to France four months after enlisting - Took part in 2nd Ypres and Festubert - Came from the Manchester area And where with a bit of poetic licence do they come close. Roll has enlisted December 1914 vs Documentary evidence has him enlisted January 1915 Roll has him gassed at the Somme August 1916 vs 7th Battalion gassed on the Somme July 1916 Roll has him demobbed April 1919 vs 1914/15 Roll has him discharged to Class Z May 1919. (NB – his 28 days de-mob leave would have started in April). And where are the gaps No evidence of the 7th Battalion involvement at Loos and Vimy. He was gassed on the Somme in August 1916 and invalided to England but with the RAMC prior to the renumbering at the start of 1917. RAMC renumbering appears to be into a unit serving overseas, but Roll says all service post gassing was in Scotland & Ireland. “Special duties” vs R.A.M.C. Any mistakes in summarising are mine and apologies if I have misunderstood anyones posts. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 An excellent summary Peter. I don't know how we can fill in the blanks. Perhaps he will show up in a 1916 casualty list? Godfrey Bintcliffe 3330 seems to have been born in Chorlton district of Manchester, 25 May 1897. 12 Prince St., Ardwick, aged 13 in 1911. He transferred to the 4th Bn. as a sergeant and got the MSM (Ancestry image): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 I have had a quick look at the RAMC 303*** numbers. I gleaned nine numbers from 1/2 HFA diary for 1919 Then a cursory trawl of service records, 303***, RAMC. One SR has the man as part of a draft arriving in theatre Spring 1917 as 3/2 HFA. Into depot and transferred to 1/2 HFA. I've found little on 2/2 & 3/2 HFA which I guess must be home service and providing enlistment and training? Nowhere near fully delved into but most of the 303*** men from the diary & SR only have their earlier 4 digit number on MIC & Roll. NB. Later Gallantry awards are under the 6 digit. Almost all with SR arrived in theatre April/May 1917, some exceptions for 1916 & 1918. Noticed that 89th FA came up a few times for 'unit disembodied from'. That diary for 1919 is loaded with HFA TF numbers, predominantly 2/1 but some for 1/2. In fact all three HFA diaries indicate some transfers across the three HFAs. No idea when the HFA men moved to 89th FA. 303433 JAB could have arrived in theatre after the renumbering. 303434 Conboy has no 4 digit on MIC. Or, 303433 remained at with 2/2 or 3/2 HFA on home service. Perhaps his RAMC stint was short lived and he then became 288092 on special duties? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 14 April , 2021 Share Posted 14 April , 2021 Looking at the RAMC Territorial Force renumbering, 303433 would have come from the block allocated to the 2nd Highland Field Ambulances, (303001 to 305000). http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-royal-army-medical-corps-in-1917/ Certainly in the case of Infantry TF Battalions I’m used to seeing other ranks who were then classified as missing, those known to be a prisoner of war, and those temporarily absent \ attached elsewhere, as all being included within the scope of the exercise. Now I may have got the maths wrong, but from the Long, Long Trail it would appear that the size of the RAMC component of a Field Ambulance was 186 other ranks plus 7 officers. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/field-ambulances-in-the-first-world-war/ Unlike an infantry battalion, it’s difficult to see why there might be significant numbers of men recorded as missing or a prisoner of war. So to have got to 303433 as part of the 1917 renumbering when you are starting from 303001 seems unlikely for the ½ HFA. I assume that is also the strength for a Field Ambulance in a Theatre of War. As the strength of Home Service only Infantry Battalions was reduced in 1916, I wonder if the same applied to Home Service Field Ambulances? Just doing the maths on my fingers I strongly suspect we are looking at a man in the 3/2 HFA. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 15 April , 2021 Share Posted 15 April , 2021 From what I was seeing they were 3/2 in UK and arrived on France as 3/2 but immediately posted 1/2. Presumably the 3/2 refilled its ranks and repeated the process. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 15 April , 2021 Share Posted 15 April , 2021 Just noted the 89th FA were AKA 2/1 HFA. Not surprising then to find 301*** numbers there then. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 16 April , 2021 Share Posted 16 April , 2021 On 15/04/2021 at 07:48, TEW said: 303433 JAB could have arrived in theatre after the renumbering. 303434 Conboy has no 4 digit on MIC. 303434 Michael Conboy has a service record on Ancestry with RAMC enlistment no. 1517/8 with 1st Scottish General Hospital. He got the SWB (enlisted 24-05-1915) and served in 'E. Africa': https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=401162&tid=&pid=&queryId=cc112610921420bbd7d429e07cb85b37&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE11257&_phstart=successSource 303437 Peter C. Taylor has a service record on Ancestry. He also served in E. Africa & S. Africa in 1917-18: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1941983&tid=&pid=&queryId=30ff2dfe0fe4cde921c05992fac9025d&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE11237&_phstart=successSource From Michael Conboy's service record (link above):+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 17 April , 2021 Share Posted 17 April , 2021 On 13/04/2021 at 05:24, Martin A Jones said: Possible family connection: the medals were stored in a box alongside papers and medals relating to a great uncle - Lawrence Corbett born 1895 in Chester. Lawrence served in the Queens and I have his service records etc. He was a chemist by trade working for a number of years for Boots and a member of the St Johns Ambulance. The medal ribbon below was found with this collection. We don’t know a lot about Lawrence but according to the 1939 Register he was living in Prestwich, Manchester and working at Boots. Given our John Arthur Barlow was ex-RAMC, could this lead him also into the St Johns Ambulance Brigade? Also could he be the Barlow in the National Roll - living in Higher Broughton and with possible family connections in Prestwich? I notice that Lawrence Corbett suffered a GSW to his leg/shoulder on 1 July 1918. Could John A Barlow have treated him in hospital? The Prestwich JAB's three siblings all married locally and died around Manchester, but JAB is elusive post 1922. I see a John Arthur Barlow emigrated to Canada? The parents were still living at 4 Duncombe Street, Higher Broughton when the youngest son Charles Edward, was married in 1929 (Ancestry image): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin A Jones Posted 17 April , 2021 Author Share Posted 17 April , 2021 Away from home at the moment so limited access to my notes but if memory serves me right the Barlow family tree on Ancestry mentioned in earlier posts has him moving to the south of England around 1938 (I thinks). Could have been part of the RAMC that looked after Lawrence but no idea how we would verify this. I’ve been in touch with St Johns HQ but records are kept locally. Tried to speak to Northern area at Salford but not picking up - suspect they are busy with the vaccination roll out. Again thanks for all your contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 17 April , 2021 Share Posted 17 April , 2021 (edited) Yes. There is a John Arthur Barlow of 21 Blake's Avenue, New Malden, Surrey, who died 9th June 1984 aged 88, DoB 22 March 1896. It could be that he is the JAB birth that was registered in Q2 1896 at Prestwich. Nothing concrete in between 1922 and 1984 though. Edited 17 April , 2021 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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