J A BARLOW Gordon Highlanders/RAMC

[Martin A Jones]

Today, whilst clearing my mother in law’s house, I have found two medals awarded to J A Barlow 3325/330443 - Gordon Highlanders and RAMC. Over the years I have completed extensive family research and can find no reference to this individual in any branches of the family tree.  These medals have never been mentioned or shown by my mother in law.  We are all intrigued! I have searched on Ancestry, Find my past, Forces war records, Fold3 and the Western Front Association members area.  I could only find the two service numbers and unit identification. I have located John as his first name. The medals are the British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Any ideas on where I could go next?  Thanks

[Ivor Anderson]

His medal roll on Ancestry shows him as John Arthur Barlow:

 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_11355-00017?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=7ed1261ede92ee34c289938c14858450&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE10699&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2435955 His MIC shows he first entered a theatre of war on 3rd May 1915. His 14-15 star roll says he was moved to reserve 21-05-1919.

 

[Martin A Jones]

Many thanks for that. Will try are more general search in ancestry to see if I can spot any family links. 

[Ivor Anderson]

He seems to have initially been with the Gordon Highlanders. Their museum may have a record of him (MIC off Ancestry):

 

[Martin A Jones]

Again thank you. Managed to locate the MIC earlier today via the Western Front Association web site. I need something with a birth date, name of parent/ spouse/child, address - anything to generate a further search. Fun but frustrating 

 

[Tawhiri]

Wondering if this might be a possibility for your J.A. Barlow. From the England, The National Roll of the Great War, 1914-1918 on Ancestry, you would just need to check how many other J.A. Barlow's served in the Gordon Highlanders, but given that his service number with the Gordon Hghlanders is quite low I'm going to assume that that would indicate enlisting at a fairly early stage of the war.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

 

[Martin A Jones]

Thank you. Looked at this earlier but no RAMC link and nothing to associate address with the family. 

[Ivor Anderson]

There are John Arthur Barlows in various locations in the civil records. We know that he survived the war.

Based on your family's general location around WW1 what area of the country is he likely to have been from?

There are quite a few born in Lancashire in the 1890s?

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

The MiC has his initial service number with the Gordon Highlanders as 3325 and he first lands in France on the 3rd May 1915.

 

He is unlikely to be a member of the Regular Army Battalion. Paul Nixons Army Service number site has that number issued by them between the 12th January 1889, (3104) and the 16th April 1890, (3392).

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/10/gordon-highlanders-1st-2nd-battalions.html

 

He could have been a man in for the long haul, but a 21 year term would have been up, and its unlikely a man still serving in 1914/15 would still have been a Private.

 

The earliest of the War Service Kitchener Army Battalions to go overseas was the 8th Battalion, who landed in France on the 10th May 1915.

 

So that leaves us with the Territorial Force Battalions. The 1/4th and 1/6th were already in France, so he could have been a replacement.

 

Both the 1/5th and 1/7th landed at Boulogne on the 3rd May 1915.

 

The 1/5th were the Buchan and Formartin Battalion. Turning to Paul Nixons’ website again, the numbers known to have been issued  shows 3186 as having joined on the 4th May 1915 – so it would appear that Battalion can be ruled out.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/5th-buchan-and-formartin-battalion.html

 

The 1/7th were the Deeside Highland Battalion. However because it was actually run by two Territorial Force County Associations, it also ran two distinct series of service numbers according to Paul Nixon - the first series starting at 1, the second series starting at 2000.

Paul struggled to identify when numbers were originally issued. He does however tell us that :-

A Company: Banchory; drill stations at Durris and Torphins

B Company: Portlethen

C Company: Stonehaven

D Company: Laurencekirk; drill stations at Auchenblae, Bervie, Fettercairn, Fordoun and Marykirk

E Company: Ballater, drill stations at Crathie and Braemar

F Company: Aboyne; drill stations at Tarland, Finzean and Logie Coldstone

G Company: Kemnay; drill stations at Skene, Blackburn, Monymusk and Echt

H Company: Peterculter; drill station at Countesswells.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2010/02/7th-deeside-highland-battalion-gordon.html

 

If he was a pre-war Territorial Force man then he is likely to be resident in that area – he had to attend 49 drill nights a year plus attend an annual camp.

 

The two counties appear to be Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire based on those locations. However, I only have access to the Censuses of Scotland up until 1901 and I couldn’t find any likely match for John other than a 46 year old.

 

So possibly half a step forward, although ScotlandsPeople isn’t showing any likely births for a John Arthur Barlow.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 10 April , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[TEW]

If he is Territorial then the 303443 RAMC number could well equate to 2nd Highland FA of Highland Division IE. 51st Division.

 

51st. Div. included 1/4, 1/5, 1/6 & 1/7 Gordons. The move from GH to RAMC could well be within the same division.

TEW

[Tawhiri]

49 minutes ago, PRC said:

The two counties appear to be Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire based on those locations. However, I only have access to the Censuses of Scotland up until 1901 and I couldn’t find any likely match for John other than a 46 year old.

 

A look at the 1911 census on ScotlandsPeople only produces a 56-year old John Barlow living in St Nicholas, Aberdeenshire, so given his age presumably the same individual  that Peter found in the 1901 census. There are no John Barlow's living in Kincardineshire. There are a total of 21 John Barlow's recorded in the 1911 census. If we focus on those that would have been at least 18 years of age in 1914, with an upper limit of say 34 years old in 1914, that leaves four potential candidates:

BARLOW    JOHN    1911   M   15    450/ 1/ 11    Newburgh Fife

BARLOW    JOHN    1911   M   16    601/ 3/ 4      Kirkoswald Ayr

BARLOW    JOHN    1911   M   21    394/A 1/ 4    Scone Perth

BARLOW    JOHN    1911   M   27    644/6 3/ 20   Springburn Lanark

 

None of them really leap out in terms of location however.

[Ivor Anderson]

On 11/04/2021 at 08:57, TEW said:

If he is Territorial then the 303443 RAMC number could well equate to 2nd Highland FA of Highland Division IE. 51st Division.

Searching 1/2nd Highland Field Ambulance on CWGC reveals service numbers close to John Barlow's 303443:

303072 Pte. Willian Mearns Clyne  Died 1 August 1917 born Greyfriars, Aberdeen - service records survive (enlisted May 1913):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_23996_0465_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=21996397     

303146 Pte. Stephen Byres Simpson  Died 30 July 1918 - enlisted Aberdeen - won the MM LG 11-12-1918 (no surviving service record)

303238 Pte. Harry Cameron Badenoch  Died 24 July 1917 enlisted Aberdeen Nov. 1914 - service records survive: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=115466&tid=&pid=&queryId=9a01460590daed32a835129eccf7e535&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE10729&_phstart=successSource

 

Sgt. James Mackay 303440 is very close - enlisted 27 April 1915 (SWB list off Ancestry):

[Martin A Jones]

9 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

There are John Arthur Barlows in various locations in the civil records. We know that he survived the war.

Based on your family's general location around WW1 what area of the country is he likely to have been from?

There are quite a few born in Lancashire in the 1890s?

 

Probably Manchester area or Wrexham/Llangollen. 

[Ivor Anderson]

A 'John A Barlow' appears on the 1881 Census as born in Boyndie, Banffshire, aged 1: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2165161:1119?tid=&pid=&queryId=5f0b78bd153e6a593dc726ec45c0245a&_phsrc=AHE10780&_phstart=successSource

A 'John Barlow' seems to be in Banff district aged 21 on the 1901 Scottish census. A 31 year old John Barlow is in Dunbarton district in 1911?

He was a carpenter in 1901: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/193622:1101?tid=&pid=&queryId=b871bd388fb36f7b6c06529c3eb81bc9&_phsrc=AHE10781&_phstart=successSource

It would make him 35 in 1915, but still a possibility?

Edited 11 April , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Martin A Jones]

Incredible knowledge from all of you combined with great generosity in taking time to reply.  Amazed by the responses.  Thank you so much. It gives me something to work on.

[PRC]

Coming at it from (several) slightly different angles to identify roughly when he enlisted and potentially where. If it’s post 5th August 1914 then many men “re-discovered” their Scottish roots and applied to join such regiments. That opens up the prospective search area considerably.

 

Pre-war you would be looking for a man local to the area – although bear in mind it could be someone brought to the area by his work after the 1911 Census.

 

Although I don’t know for sure that John Barlow went overseas with the 1/7th, let alone originally enlisted with them, for now it looks like a good line to follow.

 

Firstly I looked at men of the 1/7th  with four digit numbers in the range 3300-3399 who appear on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. Family details shown come from the same source.

 

(SDGW = Soldiers Died in the Great War)

 

3326 John McDonald. Son of Elsie and the late James McDonald, of Aberdeenshire.

SDGW KiA 27/04/1916. No place of birth or residence shown. Enlisted Manchester.

No surviving Service Records – FindMyPast.

 

3353 Thomas Durn. Son of Joseph B. and Mabel G. Durn, of 14, Green St., Withington, Manchester.

SDGW "Died" 03/02/1916. No place of birth or residence shown. Enlisted Manchester.

No surviving Service Records – FindMyPast.

 

3357 Harry Chantrell.  Son of John and Mary Jane Chantrell, of 60, Queen's Rd., Gorton, Manchester.

SDGW KiA 13/11/1916. No place of birth or residence shown. Enlisted Manchester.

No surviving Service Records – FindMyPast.

 

3369 Stephen Barlow. Son of Robert Barlow, of 8, Lewis St., Miles Platting, Manchester.

SDGW KiA 18/06/1915. No place of birth or residence shown. Enlisted Manchester.

No surviving Service Records – FindMyPast.

 

3388 John Thursnon. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Thursnon, of 15, Hardman Lane, Failsworth, Manchester.

SDGW KiA 18/06/1915. No place of birth or residence shown. Enlisted Manchester.

No surviving Service Records – FindMyPast.

 

However even on that small sample I’m seeing some recurring themes – plus we have another Barlow, (3369).

 

Unfortunately I’m not finding a Barlow family living at 8 Lewis Street, Miles Platting on the 1911 Census of England & Wales – the occupants then were a Connolly family.

 

But other information on the CWGC database is that Stephen Barlow was 19 years old when he died on the 18th June 1915. Assuming he didn’t lie about his age when enlisting, (a big if), then that would place his birth as circa 1895/96. On the 1901 & 1911 Censuses of England & Wales there is only one match in the Manchester area for a Stephen Barlow – and his fathers’ name was Robert. In 1901 the family were living at 27 Chandley Street,  Manchester and in 1911 at 34 North Porter Street, Manchester. But on both returns there is no likely candidate for John Arthur. Father Robert shows himself as married on the 1911 Census, but his wife was absent. I wouldn’t want to read too much into it, but he has left blank the columns for how long the marriage has lasted, how many children born, how many still alive.

I therefore tracked Robert down on the 1891 Census but still no candidate for John Arthur.

 

So perhaps some kind soul on the forum can establish from the amount of the War Gratuity paid for these 5 men when roughly they might have enlisted.

 

Meanwhile I’ll plough on with the next step of my approach.

 

Cheers

Peter

 

Edited 11 April , 2021 by PRC
Formatting

[TEW]

With Manchester repeatedly cropping up should the JA Barlow from Higher Broughton, Salford in the previously posted The National Roll of the Great War, 1914-1918 be totally discounted?

 

 Not sure how accurate the roll is, could they have just slipped over his RAMC service?

 

How many JA Barlows were there in the Gordons?

TEW

[charlie962]

On 12/04/2021 at 00:24, TEW said:

JA Barlow from Higher Broughton,

John Arthur Barlow, Duncombe St per 1922 Electoral Roll. Duncombe St per Nat Roll

 

edit-  1918 Absent Voters courtesy FindmyPast:

 

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, TEW said:

With Manchester repeatedly cropping up should the JA Barlow from Higher Broughton, Salford in the previously posted The National Roll of the Great War, 1914-1918 be totally discounted?

 

 Not sure how accurate the roll is, could they have just slipped over his RAMC service?

 

As far as I'm aware they were self-authored, (or provided by surviving family\friends, etc where applicable). The story presented, judging from entries I've read that can be validated from other sources, were not vetted by the publishers. Bearing that in mind, his special duties in the UK could have been John Barlows time in the RAMC.

 

17 minutes ago, TEW said:

How many JA Barlows were there in the Gordons?

 

As far as The MiC's are concerned, a search for John Barlow beings up two - but 3397 is a John W.

There are no MiCs for a J. Barlow let alone a J.A. Barlow.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 11 April , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[rolt968]

A point of information.  If you read the section about the serial numbers in 1/7 Gordon Highlanders on Paul Nixon's site carefully, you will see that it says that since the battalion was administered by two county associations (the two counties mentioned above, Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire). The Kincardineshire serial numbers started at 1 or so. The Aberdeenshire numbers started at 2000. It seems to have a "knock on" effect on the numbers issued in 1914 but I'm not clear what, especially as I am working on what tend to be Kincardineshire issued numbers.

 

RM

[TEW]

Cross posting with Peter but will continue.

?John Arthur Barlow as per the medal roll to 3325 John Arthur Barlow - MIC to John A Barlow and John Arthur Barlow on the electoral roll. Just spotted the edit regarding 288092 Sth. Camp Nig.? which is a bit of a spanner in the works.

 

He was discounted off the National Roll because of the lack of RAMC service and that the address has no connection to the OP's family even though the OP has no Barlows in the family.

TEW

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, TEW said:

288092 Sth. Camp Nig.? which is a bit of a spanner in the works.

Sorry.

I've no idea about Nig but I presumed NB was North Britain ?

I get nothing using that service number- have not tried WFA Pensions yet ?

[Tawhiri]

Looking at the 1911 England census there are at least two John Arthur Barlow's living in the Manchester area that would seem to be of the right age. There is a John Arthur Barlow living in North Manchester with his parents John Arthur and Annie Jane and three siblings. His age in the census suggests a birth year around 1891, and I can find the baptism of a John Arthur Barlow born on 11 April 1891 with parents John Arthur and Annie Jane Barlow at the Wesleyan Methodist church in Newton Heath, which matches the parents' names and location in the 1911 census. He then marries Gertrude Hirst in the same church on 26 July 1914.

 

The second John Arthur Barlow is living in Higher Broughton with his parents James and Elizabeth and three siblings. His age would suggest a birth year around 1895/96, as well as making him 18 in 1914. This individual seems to be a good fit with the John Arthur Barlow from Broughton, Salford who joined the Gordon Highlanders at the outbreak of the war.

Edited 11 April , 2021 by Tawhiri

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

his parents James

Indeed there is a James on the 1922 Electoral Roll alongside John Arthur

[TEW]

Anyone find medal details for the JA Barlow of Gordons from Higher Broughton that became 288092?

 

National Roll is saying gassed at the Somme and invalided home. No connecting casualty list entry.

TEW