Shiny steel triangles worn on rear during the somme

[TEW]

Men of 7th division had to sport a pink piece of cloth.

 

Seems the founder of the WFA found a tin triangle on the Somme.

TEW

[MikeMeech]

On 11/04/2021 at 20:43, TEW said:

I'm clinging to the hope that the bright flags were discarded pretty quick. Lots of German accounts of the day and never seen any mention of these flags beyond the plans.

TEW

Hi

 

These were used throughout the war (the French did and probably the Germans used similar as well I expect), an image from the Somme film, probably shows one of the 'Artillery Flags or Discs':

 

Their use was laid down in SS 135, in December 1916 edition page 60, in the November 1918 edition page 67.  For the Battle of Vimy in 1917, called 'Battle Flags', the 2nd Canadian Division carried 'Yellow discs with black maple leaf centre, 1st Can. Div. dark blue and yellow flags, 3rd Can. Div. Red and Black Flags.  These flags were waved when they had taken positions to indicate to FOOs that the positions were in friendly hands, just one of the methods used to reduce 'friendly fire' casualties.  They were not being 'waved' as the units attacked.

 

Mike

 

[FROGSMILE]

To be fair Mike I don’t think anyone thought the flags would be ‘waved’ (I certainly didn’t), but just that carrying them upright, even if strapped to equipment, would in the case of cloth versions mentioned have moved a little in the breeze as the men advanced.  Those in red and yellow would certainly have been noticeable from the German lines.

[michaeldr]

This particular idea pre-dates the Somme 1916.

The 29^th Division used it on Gallipoli, probably from the 3^rd Battle of Krithia in early June 1915.

The '29^th Divisional Artillery War Record & Honours Book 1915-1918' mention under the date 4^th June 1915;

“Red flags and biscuit tin lids carried by the infantry were most useful to the 'gunners' who were thus able to locate our men and vary their fire accordingly.”

[michaeldr]

Later in the Gallipoli campaign the system was still being used to good effect. A Naval gunnery observer looking over the Suvla battlefield from the top of Kiretch Tepe Ridge during August 1915 noted;

“The 29th Division, all had tin discs sewn on the backs of their tunics to show our artillery where they were; it seemed to answer well, as we could see them from where we were.”

[TEW]

Had a look through 4th & 29th Division and VIII Corps diaries to see if there was any reference to the use of the triangles or flags 1st July.

 

Found a post 1/7/16 section on 'Lessons to be learned' and various paragraphs on communications.

 

One such paragraph states that visual signals were no use due to the thick smoke. Not sure they mean the triangles or flags here. They had flashlights, very lights and flares.

 

Having read the whole lot I realised I didn't know with detail how/who the triangles were supposed to assist. I guess I'd always imagined staff officers a mile back with binoculars watching the advance.

 

Seeing their use as artillery markers (to avoid) makes sense but I've seen nothing that mentions how/if it was implemented 1/7/16. Bear in mind the troops were generally heading east into the rising sun, no sunlight glinting this time.

 

I did spot a note that signallers who were to advance once objectives were gained had a white board a foot square on a pole. These could relay simple messages three miles back.

TEW

 

[michaeldr]

4 hours ago, TEW said:

Bear in mind the troops were generally heading east into the rising sun, no sunlight glinting this time.

 

Bearing in mind that your truly knows next to nothing about the Somme 1st July 1916 ;

possibly a man may have taken the prone position (in order to fire his rifle) with the light on his back,

and surely any man killed would almost certainly be lying on the ground, very possibly with the metal plate on his back uppermost and also catching the light.

[michaeldr]

See https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/213394163.pdf where the following is noted

“Certain infantry units would also have small mirrors or small triangular tin sheets tied onto soldier’s packs. It was hoped that sunlight reflecting off the tin would allow an air observer to follow the advance. Of course this system would only prove feasible if the attacks took place on a sunny day.”

The footnote here gives the ref as

“Provisional Instructions for Contact Work, IV Army Headquarters, 26 May, 1916, RAFM. See also WITA, Vol. II, 180.”

Edited 13 April , 2021 by michaeldr

[MikeMeech]

Hi

 

The XIII Corps 'Plan of Operations' for the 1st July, 1916 has the following on the 'Tin Discs' and 'Flags':

The 'Flags' when carried would probably be rolled up around the pole like 'Signaller's Flags'  were so probably not flapping around in the breeze when being carried.  The question of troops chucking away 'useless' equipment comes up quite often, although the problem arises when it is actually needed and there are then complaints about being hit by 'friendly' artillery, as does the need to reduce the weight carried.  The problem over showing location to Contact aeroplanes was in part solved during 1918 by the introduction of an extra flap on the respirator haversack that when opened revealed a tin disc on white cloth that would be 'flapped' by the individual soldier when called for.  It was considered that the troops would not throw their respirators away!

A reason to mention XIII Corps instructions is that we have the RFC reporting on them, as I mention in my article below:

I hope that is of interest.

 

Mike

 

[MikeMeech]

Hi

 

'Flags' were not the only methods used, other items such as 'Artillery Boards' were tried out.  An example from August 1916 is to be found in the '14th Division Operational Order No.74' dated 16th August, 1916:

 

And the related  '43rd Light Infantry Brigade Operational Order No.54' dated 17th August, 1916:

 

 

All sorts of methods were being used for locating 'friendly' troops.

 

Mike

 

[Steviebullsatatter]

22 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

 

'Flags' were not the only methods used, other items such as 'Artillery Boards' were tried out.  An example from August 1916 is to be found in the '14th Division Operational Order No.74' dated 16th August, 1916:

 

And the related  '43rd Light Infantry Brigade Operational Order No.54' dated 17th August, 1916:

 

 

All sorts of methods were being used for locating 'friendly' troops.

 

Mike

 

Thankyou everyone who inputed here.

Amazing to see Just how much information there is out there.

A really fascinating subject. 

Steve 

[BullerTurner]

Henry Williamson describes these triangles in The Golden Virgin.  He also describes strips of white tape tied around epaulettes.  Any man so adorned is carrying wire-cutters.

[Steviebullsatatter]

21 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

Henry Williamson describes these triangles in The Golden Virgin.  He also describes strips of white tape tied around epaulettes.  Any man so adorned is carrying wire-cutters.

Thanks bt

Appreciate your input 

[mancpal]

I’m fairly sure the IWM have footage of B and D companies of the 22nd Manchesters advancing toward Mametz on 1/7/16. 
I have a copy on VHS but no player to check! I am still fairly sure the tin triangles are visible, the footage being taken from ‘relatively’ high ground just outside the village.

 

Simon