Scottish Uniform Identification and dating

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Hi. I am a novice at uniform identification and struggling to identify and date the soldiers uniform pictured below. Can anyone help?

 

[4thGordons]

Great war for sure. After that it's a bit of a guess...

He  has a 1914 pattern equipment waist-belt and a standard 1903 Service Dress Jacket which has not been modified for wear with a kilt (this is common see my avatar)

It is a standard SD not a "simplified" one which were quite prevalent among recruits in 1914 early 15 and persisted through the war although less obviously.

The collar of his jacket has been modified slightly for a smarter tighter fit (a common affectation)

He's also wearing a glengarry rather than a tam/bonnet so that tends towards earlier...

However he is wearing short puttees hose and boots which tends to put it a bit later in the war  (very early would have been spats and shoes, bit later boots and long puttees)

Bit mixed but if I were forced to guess I think I would go for @1916 rather than earlier - informed guesswork - others may differ!

Chris

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Thank you very much for your analysis. 

[Pat Atkins]

Cap badge maybe Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders? Just a guess - tartan sett will probably yea or nay this pretty quick. Looks possible to my uninformed eyes.

 

Wait - don't know about that glengarry, though. 

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Pat Atkins

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at the combination of shape of badge, colour of glengarry, sett of kilt, and hose tabs style, I think he’s probably a piper of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders circa 1916. In most forms of dress a piper would wear [edit] blackcock feathers, but this fellow is without sporran and so perhaps has been photographed on an extempore occasion in a field environment.  See piper on the far left in the enclosed photo for comparison.
 

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Wonder what the cloth (?) items on the shoulder straps are. Just a thought: both the 1st and 12th Argylls were in Salonika (27th and 26th Divisions respectively). Given that Salonika divisions wore a coloured strip on the shoulder strap as identifiers, is it possible he's from one or other of those battalions? As I say, just a thought.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Wonder what the cloth (?) items on the shoulder straps are. Just a thought: both the 1st and 12th Argylls were in Salonika (27th and 26th Divisions respectively). Given that Salonika divisions wore a coloured strip on the shoulder strap as identifiers, is it possible he's from one or other of those battalions? As I say, just a thought.

Yes I saw the cloth too and it certainly seems possible Steven.

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Thank you all for your comments. They really are appreciated. Just a few thoughts that may help or perhaps confuse the issue. My relatives are from Blairgowrie in Perthshire. Would it be possible that he is from the Black Watch given his geography? I’ve read that the black watch wore plain not diced glengarry’s. Don’t know if that helps or hinders. I also have been told that the recruitment area for Argylls bordered the Black watch. 

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Nickconyerd said:

Thank you all for your comments. They really are appreciated. Just a few thoughts that may help or perhaps confuse the issue. My relatives are from Blairgowrie in Perthshire. Would it be possible that he is from the Black Watch given his geography? I’ve read that the black watch wore plain not diced glengarry’s. Don’t know if that helps or hinders. I also have been told that the recruitment area for Argylls bordered the Black watch. 

I did consider the Black Watch carefully Nick, but the cap badge was a distinctively different shape to what’s shown and the Black Watch also wore their hose tabs differently.  See photo below.

 

Edited 10 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

There were also 9th Royal Scots (right hand man of the two) and 9th HLI (similar shaped badge to Black Watch but LI style shoulder titles), who both wore similar looking Government pattern kilts (there were two of these but with only a subtle difference), but other things like cap badge and hose tabs have to be considered.  After careful examination I’m fairly confident your fellow is an A&SH piper.

[gordon92]

I don't think there is any question that the original photo shows an Argyll & Sutherland Highlander.  As has already been mentioned, the cap badge, the Government tartan kilt, and the placement of the hose flashes at the midpoint of the shin all support this conclusion.  I think it unlikely that he is a piper as no other adornments....belt or sporran....typifying a piper are present.  I think he is wearing the solid colored 1915 vintage simplified glengarry instead of the more usual red-white diced version.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

I don't think there is any question that the original photo shows an Argyll & Sutherland Highlander.  As has already been mentioned, the cap badge, the Government tartan kilt, and the placement of the hose flashes at the midpoint of the shin all support this conclusion.  I think it unlikely that he is a piper as no other adornments....belt or sporran....typifying a piper are present.  I think he is wearing the solid colored 1915 vintage simplified glengarry instead of the more usual red-white diced version.

Yes I agree that the plain glengarry is a possibility and I did consider that, but on balance I prefer the piper.  The A&SH were obsessive (and I use that word advisedly) about their glengarry, which was as unique to them as the red hackle was to the Black Watch.  It represented their “thin red streak tipped with steel” at Balaclava and they would do anything to ensure that their men were equipped with the special regimental glengarry with its triple row of scarlet dicing (so strong was this icon that it was also later used as a cloth arm badge). If you compare the piper in my group photo with the OP’s picture the only difference is the earlier spats.  There’s nothing whatsoever to rule him out from being a piper in service dress.  That’s not to say that the universal glengarry is impossible, just that I think it’s less likely.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Very helpful indeed. Thank you for your comprehensive and considered conclusions. I found the photo in a family album that hadn’t been touched in decades that my grandfather kept. I am trying to contact some distant family members that may be able to help identify the man in uniform but there aren’t many alive to help and there are very few obvious relatives that it could be. 

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree that the plain glengarry is a possibility and I did consider that, but on balance I prefer the piper.  The A&SH were obsessive (and I use that word advisedly) about their glengarry, which was as unique to them as the red hackle was to the Black Watch.  It represented their “thin red streak tipped with steel” at Balaclava and they would do anything to ensure that their men were equipped with the special regimental glengarry with its triple row of scarlet dicing (so strong was this icon that it was also later used as a cloth arm badge). If you compare the piper in my group photo with the OP’s picture the only difference is the earlier spats.  There’s nothing whatsoever to rule him out from being a piper in service dress.  That’s not to say that the universal glengarry is impossible, just that I think it’s less likely.

 

I agree. He is a A&SH piper ..... your supplementary photo nicely nails it 

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Another break through and probable family confirmation. I’ve just been pointed to the maternal grandfather of my grandfather. I thought he would be too old to serve but they have found his service record and the 1917 Scottish census records. It confirms that he was a private in the 1/8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. He enlisted in 1916. They don’t have any photos but there is a very high likelihood that the records match the photo particularly given where I found the photo in the first place. Thank you all so much for your assistance. If I find any kore information I will let you know. 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Nickconyerd said:

Another break through and probable family confirmation. I’ve just been pointed to the maternal grandfather of my grandfather. I thought he would be too old to serve but they have found his service record and the 1917 Scottish census records. It confirms that he was a private in the 1/8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. He enlisted in 1916. They don’t have any photos but there is a very high likelihood that the records match the photo particularly given where I found the photo in the first place. Thank you all so much for your assistance. If I find any kore information I will let you know. 

Thank you for letting us know Nick, please do advise of any further information you learn, we are always interested to get updates.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

 

I agree. He is a A&SH piper ..... your supplementary photo nicely nails it 

Thank you that’s helpful.  Thanks also for your other much appreciated contributions and collaborations with various British Army historical matters, Scottish and otherwise over the past year and more.

Edited 10 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

3 hours ago, Nickconyerd said:

Another break through and probable family confirmation. I’ve just been pointed to the maternal grandfather of my grandfather. I thought he would be too old to serve but they have found his service record and the 1917 Scottish census records. It confirms that he was a private in the 1/8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. He enlisted in 1916. They don’t have any photos but there is a very high likelihood that the records match the photo particularly given where I found the photo in the first place. Thank you all so much for your assistance. If I find any kore information I will let you know. 

 

Any chance of providing his name and details?  Thanks. 

[battle of loos]

Good evening,

 

I always wonder about the edges of the glengarry.
they are leather up to what date?
did fabric edges exist during the First World War?

 

thank you in advance for your help.

 

Kind regards.

 

Michel

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

Good evening,

 

I always wonder about the edges of the glengarry.
they are leather up to what date?
did fabric edges exist during the First World War?

 

thank you in advance for your help.

 

Kind regards.

 

Michel

You can read all the details in this thread from 2012 Michel:  

 

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

The soldiers name in the photo we believe is David Carstairs 1876 - 1962 from Blairgowrie, Perthshire. 

[Gunner 87]

12 hours ago, Blairgowrie 1st 8th said:

The soldiers name in the photo we believe is David Carstairs 1876 - 1962 from Blairgowrie, Perthshire. 

 

Ancestry hold a partial attestation / service record for Private David Carstairs S/20313 of 18 Perth Street, Blairgowrie enlisting into what appears to be the 38th Training Reserve on the 8th June 1916 though not signed by the ‘Approving Officer’ until January 1917. The Medal Index Card, available on Ancestry, shows service in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders before transferring to the Royal Defence Corps, number 75254, available for free download at the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1714835 The corresponding Medal Roll, available at Ancestry, records service with the 11th and 1/8 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. The following is a link to the helpful LLT article regarding the battalions of Princess Louise’s (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders) https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-louises-argyll-sutherland-highlanders/

Edited 11 April , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Blairgowrie 1st 8th]

Thanks so much. That’s very helpful indeed. 

[Ron Abbott]

With regard to previous mention that he may have been a Piper in the Argylls due to the plain glengarry, there is no record of a David Carstairs in 'The Pipes of War' nor any other publication that I have checked.  Likewise, no mention of any Piper David (or D) Carstairs in the newspapers from that era.

 

There were two pipers with the surname.  One was Corporal-Piper 8423 James Carstairs of the 1st Bn. Scots Guards and the other was Piper 1163 John Carstairs of the 1/5th Bn. Black Watch.  I believe the latter may be the man of the same name who went on to become Assistant Chief Constable and Pipe-Major of the City of Dundee Police in the 1930s.  

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

With regard to previous mention that he may have been a Piper in the Argylls due to the plain glengarry, there is no record of a David Carstairs in 'The Pipes of War' nor any other publication that I have checked.  Likewise, no mention of any Piper David (or D) Carstairs in the newspapers from that era.

 

There were two pipers with the surname.  One was Corporal-Piper 8423 James Carstairs of the 1st Bn. Scots Guards and the other was Piper 1163 John Carstairs of the 1/5th Bn. Black Watch.  I believe the latter may be the man of the same name who went on to become Assistant Chief Constable and Pipe-Major of the City of Dundee Police in the 1930s.  

Hello Ron.  All very useful as always.  Do you think the cap badge in subject photo could be Black Watch, what do you see?  There’s always the possibility that he might be A&SH wearing a universal glengarry as Mike has suggested.  The latter regiment wouldn’t have liked it, but if a service battalion, and that was all that they could get then needs must....

Edited 12 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE