DH 9A - 205 SQDN LOSS

[Paul bardell]

Good morning all, I hope someone may be able to help me with the following:

 

On the 9th of November 1918, DH9A F1022 of 205 Sqdn was lost during a bombing mission, both crew being KIA.

 

TSTB II states  - "80th wing made another massed attack on the 9th, directed at the retreating army around Enghien as well as airfields in the area"

 

My question - is the target of F1022's bombing mission known or was it more a case of Targets of Opportunity?

 

In Squadron Losses by W R Chorley, Mr Chorley list targets for the 10th of November, including for 205 Sqdn but not for the 9th.

 

Any information would be gratefully received.

 

Many Thanks

 

  

 

Paul

[topgun1918]

RAF Communiqué No 32 gives:

 

A raid was also carried out on Namur railway station, 24 112-lb bombs being dropped by No 205 Squadron.  Direct hits were seen on the sidings, railway lines and sheds.

 

Graeme

 

[Paul bardell]

Graeme,

 

Many thanks for your swift response just the job!

 

 

Best regards

 

Paul

[Airshipped]

Sgt Mech G.E. Grundy wouldn't appear to have a huge number of flying hours as observer but Lt Edward Haines Johnson had been awarded the DFC. They perished in D.H.9A F1022.

 

According to the excellent Sturtivant and Page reference work, Johnson was rather more successful with the D.H.4, e.g.

 

• 05.07.1918 in D.H.4 (A8029) Lt E.H. Johnson, with observer 2/Lt A.R. Crosthwaite, shot down a Pfalz D.III near Bray at 19:57. 
• 30.07.1918 in D.H.4 (A8029) Lt E.H. Johnson, with observer 2/Lt A.R. Crosthwaite, sent a Pfalz D.III down out of control at La Flaguye at 10:15.
• 11.08.1918 in D.H.4 (A8029) Lt E.H. Johnson, with observer Lt H.F. Taylor, sent a Pfalz D.III down out of control at Péronne c.08:00. (Shared with D8387, Lt W.H. Clarke & Lt C.N. Witham).
• 06.09.1918 in D.H.4 (D9277)  Lt E.H. Johnson, with observer 2/Lt A.R. Crosthwaite, sent a Fokker D.VII down out of control St Quentin-Brie. It was light green and white-tailed. Another enemy aircraft was driven down. The engagement occurred from 09:00-09:15.
• 21.09.1918 in D.H.4 (F2633) Lt E.H. Johnson, with observer Sgt Mech W.J.H. Middleton) destroyed a Fokker D.VII.

 

Obviously, the purpose of No. 205 Squadron's operations were in respect of raids on ports and German airfields rather than engaging in aerial combat. I think the Middleton chap was awarded the DFM.

 

Edit: DFC citation refers to 76 bombing raids and 22 photographic reconnaissance ops:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30989/supplement/12968 

Edited 9 April , 2021 by Airshipped
Omitted DFC citation

[josquin]

Lieutenant Edward Haines Johnson's observer on 9 November 1918 was Sjt. George Eric Grundy (RAF 321897 Sjt. Mechanic)

Born on 21 June 1900, at Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire, he lived in Birmingham and was employed as a Laboratory Assistant 

and student prior to enlisting in 1917.  He served with the 4th Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment prior to his transfer to the

R.A.F.  His Air 79 Service Record at the National Archives, Kew, gives his service number as 321897, but the Commonwealth

War Graves Commission lists 36534.

Josquin

[Paul bardell]

Airshipped and Josquin,

 

Very many thanks for getting back to me with all this information.

 

It all helps to build up a picture of the men and their lives.

 

I and friend are researching the fallen old boys and masters (a total of 206) of Wyggeston School Leicester who were lost in WW1. A monumental task, which will keep me busy during my retirement.

 

A couple of questions if I may - Airshipped:

 

1) What is the title of the Sturtivant and Page book?

2) my research shows that Ltn H Von Freden of Jasta 50 claimed a DH9 at 11.35 near Beaumont  -  this is quite near the area F1022 came down and near the village where the crew are buried. Is there any Evidence to show he brought down F1022, or am I on the wrong track?

 

Josquin -  very good back ground information many thanks.

 

Very best regards

 

 

Paul 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Airshipped]

Hi Paul,

 

The reference work is 'The D.H.4/D.H.9 File' by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page. It was published by Air Britain in 1999.

 

In the intervening decades a huge volume of additional information has become publicly available, e.g. from unpublished memoirs, log books, diaries, family histories being published online etc. Sturtivant and Page were in a pre-digital era of physically transcribing data from squadron ORBs, Wing diaries, and Brigade records etc, though they also had the joy of speaking/corresponding with people like Jack Bruce and Stuart Leslie. 

 

On the 'who got who' I generally tend to avoid the speculation once we reach late 1918. Bear in mind that the RAF Communiqués no longer recorded the number of 'out of control' aerial victories given the sheer number of aerial combats. The Germans were inflicting massive casualties too. It was possible to link 'kills' in the earlier stages of the first air war, as there were fewer aircraft. However, consider the variables by 1918: the operational height for a D.H.9/D.H.9A would mean there's plenty of opportunity for a damaged aircraft to level out a few thousand feet below the scene of a combat and then be 'finished off' by someone else; relatively large aircraft such as the D.H.9 would have potentially broken up after being destroyed, e.g. one could see and everyone could 'verify' that there are in fact two enemy aircraft descending in flames following an engagement. 

 

Josquin might have a quote from Graeme's 'on this day' research but I'd be hesitant to quote, as I haven't had occasion to engage in the various debates as to which losses could readily be associated with any particular Jasta. Graeme has had sight of the thread, so might be in a position to provide some additional information from his extensive knowledge.

 

Best of luck with your research! Notwithstanding Peter Shilton or Gary Lineker I'd generally have watched more Tigers than Foxes when it comes to Leicester. (Perhaps it was the Beamish brothers or Paddy Coote etc but Leicester, the flying services and Ireland have somehow stuck together in my mind. I suppose in more recent years Geordan Murphy has occasionally played on the 'wing').

[topgun1918]

In my series of threads on another Forum, I posted details of the claims and losses for the British flying services in the form of a daily 'log' supported by narratives from the relevant Communiques etc.  

 

For 9 November 1918, I posted:

 

General Headquarters, November 10th.

 

“On November 9th fine weather enabled our squadrons to maintain great activity along the whole front.  A large number of photographs were taken and much valuable reconnaissance work was completed.  Our machines continued to harass the columns of the retreating enemy with bombs and machine-gun fire, delaying and disorganising his retreat and returning with useful information.  Our bombing squadrons also co-ordinated in the advance by attacking important railway centres with visibly good results.  In all over 13 tons of bombs were dropped.  Considering the weather, the enemy's activity in the air was not great.  In air fighting 12 German machines were shot down and seven were driven down out of control.  One German balloon was shot down in flames.  Thirteen of our machines are missing.

 

“At night our squadrons continued their activity, heavily attacking the important railway junctions of Liege, Louvain, and Charleroi, dropping 26 tons of bombs.  Many direct hits were obtained on the permanent way, trains, and station buildings, and several explosions and fires were caused.  Two of our machines failed to return.”

 

With regard to No 205 Squadron, 2nd-Lieut Frank Oscar McDonald & Sergt A P Pearce, in DH9A F1024, claimed a Fokker DVII in flames north of Namur at 10:11 (British Time)/11:11 (German Time ) while 2nd-Lieut William Birrell Esplen & 2nd-Lieut Cecil Hugh Latimer Needham, in DH9A F1014, claimed a Fokker DVII out of control over Charleroi at 10:35/11:35 (given the time and location, presumably after having bombed Namur railway station); Lieut Edward Haines Johnson (Kia) & 321897 Sergt-Mech George Eric Grundy (Kia), in DH9A F1022 had taken off at 08:35/09:35 and were last seen under control over Florennes in combat (no time quoted).  Ltn d R Hans von Freden of Jasta 50, made an unconfirmed claim for a DH over Beaumont at 10:35/11:35; Beaumont is 25 Km west of Florennes, which is itself some 25 Km south-west of Namur.  Since there are no other likely candidates, I feel it only reasonable to accept that von Freden brought down F1022 as it made its way home.

 

Graeme

 

[Paul bardell]

 

Airshipped and Graeme

 

First very many thanks for providing the above information and for taking the time to pass this on to me, it's really very much appreciated. Graeme, your details of 205 Squadron's activities for the 9th November is wonderfully detailed. 

 

Your details really add to the picture that is coming together on the last flight of F1022 and her crew.

 

The Air Britain book is one thats passed me by, but one I intend to track down once we have such things as book fairs again, although the option of buying via the internet will not be totally discounted. 

 

Airshipped, like you I tend to follow the Tigers more than the Foxes, even though one of my cousins when she was much younger 'walked out' with a very young Mr Lineker, bringing him into our local on a couple of occasions, with hindsight I suspect she now regrets giving him the elbow!

 

With regards to the Tigers, as I played rugby at school, and two of my teachers were Tigers players, Steve Betts and John Duggan (and my headmaster, Mr Van Hopkins was the Rugby commentator for Radio Leicester for many years) it was probably inevitable.    

 

 

Again many thanks for the information.

 

Best Regards

 

 

 

Paul