Royal Garrison Artillery

[AngelJess]

Not sure how this site works, so please forgive me.  I am doing family research and my great grandfather, John Henry Purcell, was listed as being in the R,G,A.  His number was 57245.  He was reported missing in Vermand in March 1918 and was released as a POW in Dec 1918.  He is recorded as a POW in Strendal.  This information was forwarded to me by someone who was helping me research.  Can anyone help with these details and confirm if he was there as a POW?

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t really understand what you’re asking.  That Image that you’ve posted is clearly from a POW nominal register and shows him as a POW exactly as you’ve described.  What else do you seek?

Edited 8 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

As noted above, this is an official ICRC WW1 PoW record freely available from this site (link should open up to this exact record).

 

Prisoners of the First World War | International Committee of the Red Cross - View the records (icrc.org)

 

Regards

 

Russ

[Gunner 87]

Hi AngelJess, as Frogsmile says the record confirms John was taken POW and it appears this was on the 21st March 1918, which was the first day of the German Spring Offensive, ‘Operation Michael’. Having searched Ancestry and Fold3 i am unable to find the attestion / service record for John meaning it may have been destroyed in 1940. The Medal Index Card and corresponding Medal Roll don’t give up any clue as to which Battery John was serving with other than recording .’Base Detail’ which isn’t a great help. Having looked at the ICRC site though it lists John serving with ‘132 R.G.A.’ which is likely the 132 Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery. The War Dairy for this unit may well record the action the Battery was involved in on the 21st March 1918 which, in turn, would give an idea of the circumstances around John’s capture. These documents can be found online at the National Archive and are free to download at present. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Ron Clifton]

It is possible that the first of the three lines in each entry refers to the battalion or company/battery in which the man was serving when captured. If that is so, he is likely to have been in either 132 Heavy Battery or 132 Siege Battery of the RGA, Other RGA experts on the Forum will be able to tell which is more likely.

 

Edit: 132 Heavy is the more likely, as 132 Siege seems to have been in Salonika for the whole of 1918.

 

Ron

Edited 8 April , 2021 by Ron Clifton

[Gunner 87]

The second record, PA 40255, shows John moved to Metz POW Camp. 

 

Edited 8 April , 2021 by Gunner 87

[AngelJess]

I appreciate your replies.  You are talking to a woman who has no clue about military terms (despite several maternal and paternal generations being in the army/navy.) As I said, this information was forwarded to me, I didn't look it up.  The birth certificate for his eldest son states he was a 'private in the 7th Battalion Manchester Regiment' in 1914.  On my grandfathers birth certificate, in 1916, he is listed as 'a Gunner, Royal Garrison Artillery.'

 

 

[Gunner 87]

2 minutes ago, AngelJess said:

I appreciate your replies.  You are talking to a woman who has no clue about military terms (despite several maternal and paternal generations being in the army/navy.) As I said, this information was forwarded to me, I didn't look it up.  The birth certificate for his eldest son states he was a 'private in the 7th Battalion Manchester Regiment' in 1914.  On my grandfathers birth certificate, in 1916, he is listed as 'a Gunner, Royal Garrison Artillery.'

 

 

AngelJess, i’m going to send you over a pm.

[AngelJess]

Sorry Gunner 87, this is what I found

[Gunner 87]

Hi AngelJess. 132nd (Oxfordshire) Heavy Battery were part of 76th Brigade, Royal Garrison Artillery at the time John was taken prisoner on the 21st March 1918. The War Diary records the Battery at Hervilly Wood, which I would think is the same as Hervilly, and which Google shows 7.8km from Vermand where John is first recorded as a POW. As previously mentioned this was the first day of the German Spring Offensive. I have attached the entry for that day and summary for the end March from the War Diary found at the National Archives, reference WO  95/477/1. As you can see the Battery had to abandon or destroy four of it’s guns and this may well have been when John was taken prisoner as the British were forced to make a hasty withdrawal. 

 

Also which may be of interest is the War Diary for the 132nd as a unit on its own, covering the period 1st April 1917 to 31st August 1917, again available for free download at the National Archive by searching reference WO 95/477/1. This document will give an idea as to the day to day movements and actions the Battery was involved in. 

 

 

[Gunner 87]

Hi Guys. I’ve been looking at Gunner John Henry Purcell 57245 with AngelJess and other than his MIC / Medal Roll held on Ancestry and ICRC records confirming service with 132 RGA, likely the 132nd (Oxfordshire) Heavy Battery RGA, can find no further trace of his service.

 

Using @kevinrowlinson very helpful research on RGA service numbers and enlistment dates it looks like John joined the RGA between October and November 1915. 

 

What I find unusual is that John is recorded as serving with the 7th Battalion Manchester Regiment (TF) on his oldest son’s birth certificate in 1914 but the RGA on a younger sons birth certificate in 1916. 

 

I wonder if any of our members can offer an opinion on the following. 

 

If John had left the 7th Manchester’s and didn’t declare his previous service when joining the RGA could this be the reason only the latter regiment is recorded on his MIC and Medal Roll?

 

In addition to the above, is it possible to determine whether 132nd (Oxfordshire) Heavy Battery was John’s first unit as being from Manchester I wonder why he enlisted into an Oxfordshire unit. 

 

Any help would be gratefully received. 

 

 

[AngelJess]

Gunner 87, this is his eldest son.  As you can see it shows that he was a private in the 7th Battalion.  I will try and upload my grandfathers one, just for clarity.

COL931753_2021-1-JOHN_JAMES_PURCELL.pdf

 

[Mike Cross]

He is not listed in the Nominal Roll but I cannot vouch for accuracy.

MC

[AngelJess]

My grandfathers birth certificate 1916

[Gunner 87]

7 minutes ago, AngelJess said:

Gunner 87, this is his eldest son.  As you can see it shows that he was a private in the 7th Battalion.  I will try and upload my grandfathers one, just for clarity

 

Thanks AngelJess, I note the date on his eldest son’s birth certificate is the 16th November 1914, after the beginning of the war, which makes it more unusual for an infantryman to leave his regiment during hostilities and join a completely different arm of the service, in this case artillery. I’m hoping one of our experts can offer an opinion. 

[clk]

Hi AngelJess,

 

The camps written in red at the top of the Red Cross registers, are the camps that administered his captivity, which isn't necessarily quite the same thing as being physically held there. Sometimes men were held and put to work many miles away.

 

A couple of brief contemporary descriptions of the two camps:

 

 

 

Images sourced from archive.org

 

On 09/04/2021 at 04:03, Gunner 87 said:

Having searched Ancestry and Fold3 i am unable to find the attestion / service record for John meaning it may have been destroyed in 1940.

 

On 09/04/2021 at 06:06, AngelJess said:

Sorry Gunner 87, this is what I found

 

Given the record you found, (whilst there are some issues relating to his DoB in the records)  it might well be that some of his WW1 details are still in what appears to be his file held by the MoD. From an index they published a few years ago...

 

 

If you wanted to take a £30 gamble, and are prepared for a long wait, you should be able to get a copy of what would probably be a heavily weeded file - see here, Contrary to the general advice, given his DoB, they wouldn't need a copy death certificate with any application. There is a helpdesk phone number here. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

[Gunner 87]

11 minutes ago, Mike Cross said:

He is not listed in the Nominal Roll but I cannot vouch for accuracy.

 

Thanks Mike. This reinforce’s the idea John was just attached to the 132nd at the time of his capture.

[AngelJess]

2 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi AngelJess,

 

The camps written in red at the top of the Red Cross registers, are the camps that administered his captivity, which isn't necessarily quite the same thing as being physically held there. Sometimes men were held and put to work many miles away.

 

A couple of brief contemporary descriptions of the two camps:

 

 

Images sourced from archive.org

 

 

 

Given the record you found, (whilst there are some issues relating to his DoB in the records)  it might well be that some of his WW1 details are still in what appears to be his file held by the MoD. From an index they published a few years ago...

 

If you wanted to take a £30 gamble, and are prepared for a long wait, you should be able to get a copy of what would probably be a heavily weeded file - see here, Contrary to the general advice, given his DoB, they wouldn't need a copy death certificate with any application. There is a helpdesk phone number here. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

The DOB is nearly right...his is 26/4/1894

[clk]

Hi,

 

Yes, and the surname, initials and service number match. The birth of Alfred (28.2.1916 from his birth certificate) matches the entry in the post war image you posted, where the service number 400315 links to the index published by the MoD.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

1 hour ago, AngelJess said:

Gunner 87, this is his eldest son.  As you can see it shows that he was a private in the 7th Battalion.  I will try and upload my grandfathers one, just for clarity.

COL931753_2021-1-JOHN_JAMES_PURCELL.pdf 628.89 kB · 3 downloads

 

FMP have a few pages of what seems to be his service record with 7/Manchesters - link. He served 'at home' as number 1861, attesting pre war on 11.6.1913 into the Territorial Force - discharged 12.2.1915 (Para 392 XVI - 'No longer physically fit for war service').

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 10 April , 2021 by clk

[Gunner 87]

11 minutes ago, clk said:

 

FMP have a few pages of what seems to be his service record with 7/Manchesters - link. He served 'at home' as number 1861, attesting pre war on 11.6.1913 - discharged 12.2.1915 (Para 392 XVI - 'No longer physically fit for war service').

 

Regards

Chris

Great find Chris, I completely missed that. Also held on Ancestry with a Pension Ledger Index Card viewable through Fold3. I wonder if he then enlisted into a different arm, out of area without mentioning his previous service. This would account for no mention of the Manchester’s on his MIC / Medal Roll. 

[clk]

Hi,

 

6 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 I wonder if he then enlisted into a different arm, out of area without mentioning his previous service. This would account for no mention of the Manchester’s on his MIC / Medal Roll. 

 

I think that it is intriguing about what would appear to be his discharge 'unfit' (precise reason unknown), then subsequent re-enlistment a few months later. Maybe a service file would help to pad that out. I think though that the lack of reference to the Manchester Regiment on his MIC/Medal Roll records is probably likely to be straight forward to explain. Those records relate to entitlement to medal awards, which in themselves relate to overseas service, and not a complete record of service. As his service with the Manchester Regiment looks like it was entirely 'at home', it wouldn't have been relevant to his medal entitlement, and so wouldn't have appeared in those records.

 

Regards

Chris

[Matlock1418]

50 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Pension Ledger Index Card viewable through Fold3

Don't get too excited = Soldier's Pension card, not Ledger Card at WFA/Fold3:

PURCELL, John, Manchester 7th Bn. TF, 1861, Pte., Chelsea No. 5798E [The CH pension claim reference]

No other details on the card

:-) M

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[Gunner 87]

36 minutes ago, clk said:

 

I think that it is intriguing about what would appear to be his discharge 'unfit' (precise reason unknown), then subsequent re-enlistment a few months later. Maybe a service file would help to pad that out. I think though that the lack of reference to the Manchester Regiment on his MIC/Medal Roll records is probably likely to be straight forward to explain. Those records relate to entitlement to medal awards, which in themselves relate to overseas service, and not a complete record of service. As his service with the Manchester Regiment looks like it was entirely 'at home', it wouldn't have been relevant to his medal entitlement, and so wouldn't have appeared in those records.

 

Thanks Chris, that makes complete sense.

 

16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Don't get too excited = Soldier's Pension card, not Ledger Card at WFA/Fold3:

PURCELL, John, Manchester 7th Bn. TF, 1861, Pte., Chelsea No. 5798E [The CH pension claim reference]

No other details on the card

 

It had crossed my mind that if he was in receipt of a pension from his time with the Manchester’s then it’s difficult to see the RGA were aware of his previous service. Is that what you are thinking M?

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Gunner 87

[clk]

Hi,

 

With a date stamp of August 1916, a pension claim for whatever reason/cause for the claim seems to have been rejected...

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris