Trying to find records for a soldier in the Oxon and Bucks L.I. in 1916 who then seems to be in the 2/7 Essex TF later that year.

[erica236]

Hi,

I am trying to find service records for Thomas Alexander Crowther, born 1891 in Leeds, Yorkshire.  In February 1916 he was in court for robbery, at the time being a private in the Oxon and Bucks L.I. Then in Dec 1916 I have found a Court Martial record for a Thomas Crowther in the 2/7 Essex T.F.  I know from police records that the Crowther I am researching was handed over to the military at this time for stealing a bicycle and I believe the Essex regiment was a Cyclist Battalion. It seems too much of a coincidence but I am unable to verify any of this until I can find his service records. 

If by any chance they still exist I would be grateful for some help in finding them.

Many thanks for your time,

Erica.

[Tawhiri]

No obvious matches for him in surviving service records, or the medal rolls which would suggest that he had no overseas service. I presume this is the Thomas Alexander Crowther aged 19 who is living in Leeds in the 1911 England Census with parents Thomas Herbert and Alice Maud Crowther, and an adopted brother Harry aged 2 years. He certainly seems to have continued his criminal career after the war with further convictions for breaking and entering in 1920, 1923, 1925, and 1929. He also seems to have had a spell in the East Moor Community Home School in 1907. The latter gives his birth date as 7 June 1891, and there is a Thomas A Crowther with the same birth date living in Burgess Hill, Sussex in the 1939 England and Wales Register, and working as a general labourer. His wife Gertrude is working as a domestic servant at the same address, and looking at the ages of the other two people at the same address one might surmise that they are both working as servants at the address. Thomas' death was registered in the Cuckfield, Sussex registration district in the first quarter of 1971. 

[erica236]

Thank you, yes, this is all the information I have.  Maybe there are no further military records but judging by his police records it does seem likely that  he was in the Essex T F when he stole the bike - perhaps from his unit? I wondered why he was in two different units in the same year.

[jay dubaya]

1/8th 2/8th and 3/8th were the Essex cyclist battalions. The 2/7th were based in Harrogate at the time of his December 1916 offence.

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, erica236 said:

Hi,

I am trying to find service records for Thomas Alexander Crowther, born 1891 in Leeds, Yorkshire.  In February 1916 he was in court for robbery, at the time being a private in the Oxon and Bucks L.I. Then in Dec 1916 I have found a Court Martial record for a Thomas Crowther in the 2/7 Essex T.F.  I know from police records that the Crowther I am researching was handed over to the military at this time for stealing a bicycle and I believe the Essex regiment was a Cyclist Battalion. It seems too much of a coincidence but I am unable to verify any of this until I can find his service records. 

If by any chance they still exist I would be grateful for some help in finding them.

Many thanks for your time,

Erica.

Does it give the Essex service number ?

Craig

[erica236]

I can't find a service number. I got the Oxon and Bucks Regiment from a newspaper report on his robbery. The Essex T F Regiment I found on Fold 3 Courts Martial Register. No service number was shown and I am not sure that this is the correct person as the name is only given as T Crowther but I do know that he was passed on to the military at this time for stealing a bicycle from his police records. I don't think he would have had time to serve abroad as he seems to have spent most of his life in prison!

[Guest]

Something of a fool's errand.  If you run "Thomas Crowther"  on Free BMD for the 5 years each side of 1891- let alone God knows how many others of military age there were outside those birth years - there are 62 of them. I think you will have to come up with something more substantive than "same name" to assume there is any connection at all between these 2.

[erica236]

I have a bit more information: in August 1915 Thomas was with the 3rd Kings Royal Rifle Corps, Sheerness (service number 12143 or 1243) and said he was wounded in Ypres on 25th March 1915. This information was on his reform school records but, of course, he could have been lying! Does this make sense? I still can't find a service record for him!

I think I can discard the Essex T.F. record which, as you say, could have been anyone!

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, erica236 said:

I have a bit more information: in August 1915 Thomas was with the 3rd Kings Royal Rifle Corps, Sheerness (service number 12143 or 1243) and said he was wounded in Ypres on 25th March 1915.

 

     Overseas service means he should be on a Medal Roll-on Ancestry. That may be the way into this- try to run the service number on Medal Roll, Medal Index Card and see what they say about units.  3 KRRC were in France in March 1915, so it may be true- You will have to check the war diary (available from TNA) for that.  3KRRC were still in France in August 1915-but it is possible/likely that IF wounded he was attached to one of the reserve battalions of KRRC which were in and around Sheerness through the war, as part of the Thames and Medway garrison. It suggests extended hospital treatment -there were busy military hospitals at Chatham,Gravesend,etc.   Wounded and sick men were routinely assigned to one of these battalions. This sound a lot more promising.

 

      7th Essex is very suspect.  It was based where I live and there are 2 things that are a bit iffy-it was shipped out sharpish to the Middle East.  As a Territorial unit it was also very,very unlikely to pull in a man from another regiment as far away as Oxon.  When there are transfers, it tends to be within battalions of the same regiment or  at least to another regiment from the same area- transfers were usually the sweepings from depots- those recovering from wounds or illness.  A man from Ox and Bucks would not normally be transferred outside that immediate area- though a transfer from O and B to KRRC is possible, though still improbable.

Edited 5 April , 2021 by Guest

[erica236]

Thank you for your interest.

I have now found a Medal Rolls card on Ancestry for Thomas Crowther, Rifle Brigade, who served in France. Reg no. B2159. I suspect this is as close as I am going to get.

Thomas is a distant relation of mine. I have been trying to piece his life together since I found a long list of his crimes in a police gazette and various newspaper reports. He seems to have been a very busy man, even finding time to marry and have a child! Life must have been hard in those days.

[PAT A]

Hi Erica, what an eye opener . For many years I too have been trying to find out about Thomas and his part in WW 1 . 

I had hit a brick wall and assumed being a prisoner he wouldn't have served . I do now  think he came back from Ypres wounded , as my father had mentioned some injury  but nothing about how it happened as Thomas Alexander Crowther was the black sheep of the family and also my Grandfather.

Thank you Erica.  

  

 

[ss002d6252]

B2159 Crowther was killed in May 1915
https://www.fold3.com/image/668532696?terms=b2159,crowther

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 05/04/2021 at 13:51, erica236 said:

Thomas Crowther, Rifle Brigade, who served in France. Reg no. B2159.

Aged 45, so born about 1870, and buried in Boulogne.

Not Thomas Alexander Crowther then.

[ss002d6252]

49 minutes ago, PAT A said:

Hi Erica, what an eye opener . For many years I too have been trying to find out about Thomas and his part in WW 1 . 

I had hit a brick wall and assumed being a prisoner he wouldn't have served . I do now  think he came back from Ypres wounded , as my father had mentioned some injury  but nothing about how it happened as Thomas Alexander Crowther was the black sheep of the family and also my Grandfather.

Thank you Erica.  

  

 

Can you please tell us what you know about Thomas?

B2159 Crowther has been ruled out via his age.

Craig

[erica236]

Hi Pat,

Great to hear from you.

I have gathered quite a lot of information on Thomas (who died in 1971). 

My 4 x great grandfather William Crann had 8 sons. I am descended from one, James Crann, and Thomas Crowther is descended from his brother John Crann.

Is there any way I can contact you directly as there is too much to post here!

Best wishes,

Erica

 

 

 

 

 

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

Erica236...Can you give us some information about the other members of the family, ie. Thomas Roy Crowther TA's son born 1923? Mother's maiden name Reeves.

In 1923 Thomas was sentenced to 18 mths and was released to Manchester. His shopbreaking having taken place in Middleton,Lancs. His occ. given as an Engineer.

Can you post a link to his Reform School Records?

On 05/04/2021 at 11:09, erica236 said:

I have a bit more information: in August 1915 Thomas was with the 3rd Kings Royal Rifle Corps, Sheerness (service number 12143 or 1243) and said he was wounded in Ypres on 25th March 1915. This information was on his reform school records but, of course, he could have been lying! Does this make sense? I still can't find a service record for him!

I think I can discard the Essex T.F. record which, as you say, could have been anyone!

Regarding No.1243 this was issued to a Harry Tooby  also  was 61772 KRRC. He enlisted in 1898 so certainly not that number. His records on Ancestry.

Searching,

Regards Barry

[Michelle Young]

1 hour ago, erica236 said:

Hi Pat,

Great to hear from you.

 

Is there any way I can contact you directly as there is too much to post here!

Best wishes,

Erica

 

 

 

 

 

You can send Pat a private message, by clicking on her name, then clicking on the envelope icon. Please do not put any personal information like email addresses on the open forum.

Michelle 

[PAT A]

Hi all , the only information I have are from birth ,marriage and death certificates. He was born on 7th July 1891 in Leeds. He married at the age of 29 to Gertrude Reeves from Wem on the 21st August 1920 and died in Cuckfield Hospital on 13th January 1971 after living in Burgess Hill for the later part of his life.  After research I had found out about his prison life , but nothing more . 

[erica236]

20 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Can you give us some information about the other members of the family, ie. Thomas Roy Crowther TA's son born 1923? Mother's maiden name Reeves.

In 1923 Thomas was sentenced to 18 mths and was released to Manchester. His shopbreaking having taken place in Middleton,Lancs. His occ. given as an Engineer.

Can you post a link to his Reform School Records?

Sorry I have no information on the other family members. My interest was just in Thomas. The reform school records can be found on Ancestry.

[charlie962]

On 05/04/2021 at 12:09, erica236 said:

I have a bit more information: in August 1915 Thomas was with the 3rd Kings Royal Rifle Corps, Sheerness (service number 12143 or 1243)

There was indeed a 12143 T.Crowther of 3rd battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps reported wounded in the Daily casualty List of 4th June 1915, report dated 18/5/15.

The report date could be anything from 2weeks to two months after tha actual wounding date but April1915 would look good.

Charlie

[PAT A]

Hello Charlie , thanks for the information and your time.  Will be looking into this.   Pat.

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

There was indeed a 12143 T.Crowther of 3rd battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps reported wounded in the Daily casualty List of 4th June 1915, report dated 18/5/15.

The report date could be anything from 2weeks to two months after tha actual wounding date but April1915 would look good.

Charlie

He's listed in one of the surviving medical registers.

5 KRR. Admitted on 8 May 1915 with ICT Right Foot to the 3 CCS.

I can't presently see any other medal record etc under this number, so I suspect it's probably going to be an error in the number.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The correct number for the above seems to be 213434.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2030886
 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

This then gives us a pension card.

https://www.fold3.com/image/700779342?terms=crowther,213434

Craig

[ss002d6252]

And the ledger


https://www.fold3.com/image/645844361?terms=crowther,213434

Craig