W H Coventry in the 2nd Kings African Regiment

[planehome]

My grandfather joined the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, embarking to France in March 1915 and his 1914-15 Star is linked to that regiment.  However, his Victory Medal and British War Medal show him as linked to the 2 KAR.  His Reg Nos are 2360 and 265577.  Can anyone direct me to where I can find information about his transfer to the KAR and then where he might have served ?  Up until now, I assumed that he had served only in France.

Thank you so much, Pete Lane.

[alf mcm]

Hello Pete, welcome to the forum.

   The 2 K.A.R. had 3 battalions on service. Their war diaries are available free from The National Archives once you register {very easy}.

  For 1/2 K.A.R. go to   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"1%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  For 2/2 K.A.R. go to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"2%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  For 3/2 K.A.R. go to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"3%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  This may seem like a lot of war diaries but none of them are very big, and they wouldn't take long to read through. Your grandfather was a Sergeant so he may be mentioned by name, but the medal roll doesn't mention which battalion he was in.  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5821-00261?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=baa3474baea912d82c11d46e2b9437e9&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY52362&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.236912905.920047444.1617031911-119227612.1483026526&pId=3173391

 

Regards,

Alf McM

[planehome]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Hello Pete, welcome to the forum.

   The 2 K.A.R. had 3 battalions on service. Their war diaries are available free from The National Archives once you register {very easy}.

  For 1/2 K.A.R. go to   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"1%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  For 2/2 K.A.R. go to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"2%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  For 3/2 K.A.R. go to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_hb=tna&_q=wo+95%2F+"3%2F2+battalion+kings+african+rifles"

  This may seem like a lot of war diaries but none of them are very big, and they wouldn't take long to read through. Your grandfather was a Sergeant so he may be mentioned by name, but the medal roll doesn't mention which battalion he was in.  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5821-00261?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=baa3474baea912d82c11d46e2b9437e9&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY52362&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.236912905.920047444.1617031911-119227612.1483026526&pId=3173391

 

Regards,

Alf McM

Thankyou so much for this link Alf McM - some happy reading ahead !

 

It is interesting that the nomination for the two medals comes from KAR documentation signed in Nairobi in 1921, but the medal inscriptions still record as Liverpool Regiment, presumably because that was my grandfather's formal regimental affiliation. Does anyone know what the red writing in the remarks column of the medal roll represents ?  It seems to be a code back to the original regiment of the soldier. I am fascinated about this KAR link and what to find out whatever I can.  A previous post elsewhere on here talked about the NOMINAL ROLL OF WARRANT AND NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS SERVING IN THE KING'S AFRICAN RIFLES. Quarter ending September 1918, but this does not appear in the online documents.  Assuming that it is still within the NA, I assume that it is paper only and I would read to visit to read it ?

I am also confused about the origin of 2 KAR - it is referred to as the second Nyasaland Regiment but was raised in Nairobi, Kenya !  Would the the soldiers have been from Nyasaland or Kenya ?   

 

Pete Lane

[MaureenE]

There is a section about the establishment of the KAR in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page East Africa

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/East_Africa#British_African_regiments_such_as_the_King.27s_African_Rifles

 

Maureen

[Matlock1418]

Peter,

Welcome to GWF

An interesting scenario.

On 03/04/2021 at 22:45, planehome said:

However, his Victory Medal and British War Medal show him as linked to the 2 KAR.  His Reg Nos are 2360 and 265577.  Can anyone direct me to where I can find information about his transfer to the KAR

2360 1/7th KLR

265577 7th KLR

As you seem to know he has a single MIC and two Medal Rolls KLR & KAR

He was not transferred to the the KAR - he was attached to KAR

 

You may be interested to know that as 265577 Liverpool Regt he has two pension cards at WFA/Fold3 - made a claim in the NW England/3 Region - unfortunately they tell little beyond this and the fact that he seems to have put in his claim for a pension when he was transferred to the Z Reserve [typically for most this was their demobilisation as they most commonly never had to serve again - as it was abolished in August 31 March 1920]

:-) M

Edited 5 April , 2021 by Matlock1418
strikethrough and correction

[planehome]

42 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Peter,

Welcome to GWF

An interesting scenario.

2360 1/7th KLR

265577 7th KLR

As you seem to know he has a single MIC and two Medal Rolls KLR & KAR

He was not transferred to the the KAR - he was attached to KAR

 

You may be interested to know that as 265577 Liverpool Regt he has two pension cards at WFA/Fold3 - made a claim in the NW England/3 Region - unfortunately they tell little beyond this and the fact that he seems to have put in his claim for a pension when he was transferred to the Z Reserve [typically for most this was their demobilisation as they most commonly never had to serve again - as it was abolished in August 1920]

:-) M

Thank you for your guidance - I am still getting familiar with some of the terminology and certainly didn't know that he had two pension cards.  I just wish I knew when he was attached to the 2nd KAR and which battalion ie. 1/2, 2/2, etc.  This would help when then looking at the war diaries.  I will keep searching !  Thank you. Pete

2 hours ago, Maureene said:

There is a section about the establishment of the KAR in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page East Africa

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/East_Africa#British_African_regiments_such_as_the_King.27s_African_Rifles

 

Maureen

Thank you Maureen.  All background information is useful and interesting.  Pete

[SteveE]

On 04/04/2021 at 13:01, planehome said:

It is interesting that the nomination for the two medals comes from KAR documentation signed in Nairobi in 1921, but the medal inscriptions still record as Liverpool Regiment, presumably because that was my grandfather's formal regimental affiliation. Does anyone know what the red writing in the remarks column of the medal roll represents ?  It seems to be a code back to the original regiment of the soldier. I am fascinated about this KAR link and what to find out whatever I can.  A previous post elsewhere on here talked about the NOMINAL ROLL OF WARRANT AND NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS SERVING IN THE KING'S AFRICAN RIFLES. Quarter ending September 1918, but this does not appear in the online documents.  Assuming that it is still within the NA, I assume that it is paper only and I would read to visit to read it ?

I am also confused about the origin of 2 KAR - it is referred to as the second Nyasaland Regiment but was raised in Nairobi, Kenya !  Would the the soldiers have been from Nyasaland or Kenya ?

Pete

 

The red writing in the remarks column of the King's African Rifles Medal Roll is "L'Pool R H/2/102 B40 P.6207" and links back to the Liverpool Regiment Medal Roll (NA Ref. WO 329/829) on which William's entitlement is recorded, link to it is here... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_10918-00151?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=924a1f8b40354f66613b5a95088701d2&pId=2362895 but it adds nothing to what you already know.

 

From mid-1917 onwards the strength of the King's African Rifles was increased considerably and a large number of British N.C.O.s (many of them Territorials) were sent out to train and bolster the increased number of battalions.  Whilst it's possible that William served with 1/2nd, 2/2nd or 3/2nd Battalions K.A.R. it's also possible that he served at the Depot or with the 4/2nd which was a Training Battalion.  It's going to be difficult to identify which unit he served with unless you can a.) find him in one of the War Diaries or b.) the Nominal Roll you mentioned has him included and I believe Harry @bushfighter may have a copy of this roll?

 

Both the 1st and 2nd King's African Rifles recruited in Nyasaland but whereas the 1st K.A.R. stayed in Nyasaland the 2nd K.A.R. were moved to British East Africa and were based in and around Nairobi.

 

Steve

[planehome]

1 hour ago, SteveE said:

Pete

 

The red writing in the remarks column of the King's African Rifles Medal Roll is "L'Pool R H/2/102 B40 P.6207" and links back to the Liverpool Regiment Medal Roll (NA Ref. WO 329/829) on which William's entitlement is recorded, link to it is here... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_10918-00151?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=924a1f8b40354f66613b5a95088701d2&pId=2362895 but it adds nothing to what you already know.

 

From mid-1917 onwards the strength of the King's African Rifles was increased considerably and a large number of British N.C.O.s (many of them Territorials) were sent out to train and bolster the increased number of battalions.  Whilst it's possible that William served with 1/2nd, 2/2nd or 3/2nd Battalions K.A.R. it's also possible that he served at the Depot or with the 4/2nd which was a Training Battalion.  It's going to be difficult to identify which unit he served with unless you can a.) find him in one of the War Diaries or b.) the Nominal Roll you mentioned has him included and I believe Harry @bushfighter may have a copy of this roll?

 

Both the 1st and 2nd King's African Rifles recruited in Nyasaland but whereas the 1st K.A.R. stayed in Nyasaland the 2nd K.A.R. were moved to British East Africa and were based in and around Nairobi.

 

Steve

Thank you for the information, Steve. So, the red references are just circular between the KAR and Liverpool's medal rolls !  Its useful to know that it is more likely that he went out from 1917 onwards - I have started reading through some of the war diaries, but at least this indicates the period that I should concentrate on first.  The war diaries that I have read so far only seem to mention NCOs when they are injured or killed ! 

This may be a silly question but, if he was attached to the KAR, then would this definitely be on African continent and not in some UK or France-based training role ? Its just that my mum has no recollection of her dad talking about Africa at all, which seems strange. So ... just checking !

Thanks once again for the information. Best wishes, Pete.

[SteveE]

1 hour ago, planehome said:

This may be a silly question but, if he was attached to the KAR, then would this definitely be on African continent and not in some UK or France-based training role ? Its just that my mum has no recollection of her dad talking about Africa at all, which seems strange. So ... just checking !

Pete

 

There's no such thing as a silly question here...  All of William's service on attachment to the King's African Rifles would have been 'somewhere' in East Africa, the various battalions of the K.A.R. were not used outside of the African theatre during the Great War.

 

Steve

[planehome]

1 hour ago, SteveE said:

Pete

 

There's no such thing as a silly question here...  All of William's service on attachment to the King's African Rifles would have been 'somewhere' in East Africa, the various battalions of the K.A.R. were not used outside of the African theatre during the Great War.

 

Steve

Thank you, its good to be clear about that !  Best wishes, Pete

[bushfighter]

Pete

Greetings

Attached is the relevant page in the KAR EUROPEAN NCOs Register - he was at that time employed in the 2nd KAR Depot near Nairobi.

Harry

[planehome]

Thanks so much Harry, this is fabulous to know. So many questions arise .... sorry, but thank you for any answers that you have time to share ! 

 

What does the date on this schedule represent please - date of arrival or departure ?

 

Would the role at the Depot have been a training role ? 

 

What does the P1 designation mean in front of the Sergt rank ?

 

Were soldiers attached the the KAR volunteers or were they just assigned ?

 

 At least I can now pin down a time when my grandfather was in Nairobi which is lovely to both know myself and to share with my mother.

 

Best wishes, Pete

[MaureenE]

5 hours ago, bushfighter said:

Pete

Greetings

Attached is the relevant page in the KAR EUROPEAN NCOs Register - he was at that time employed in the 2nd KAR Depot near Nairobi.

Harry

 

That's interesting to see Harry.  Would that be a document from the National Archives and do you have a reference?

 

[bushfighter]

Maureene

Greetings

My photographer didn't photo the reference but here's the title page to trace it in the NAM catalogue.

H.

 

[MaureenE]

Thanks Harry.

I couldn't find anything specific in the catalogue of the National Army Museum , but perhaps it may come from either "Correspondence and documents relating to the history of the King's African Rifles collected by Lt Col H Moyse Bartlett, nd. Archives  NAM Accession Number 1967-05-60" or 

"Miscellaneous documents associated with the 2nd King's African Rifles in East Africa, 1916-1918; associated with World War One, East Africa (1914-1918). Archives  NAM Accession Number1965-06-16"

 

Maureen