Pte. Fred Ward 20550 Essex Regiment 1st Bn.

[jonbem]

Hi all

my 1st cousin 2x removed

Fred Ward 20550 Essex Regiment  1st Bn. (Formerly 18000, Norfolk Regt.)

I have an ancestor who is this chap (Soldiers Died on Ancestry) died 13 Aug 1915

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/683378/FRED WARD/

and on Ancestry HERE  

Drowned on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMT_Royal_Edward

HMT Royal Edward - http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?21090

The MIC doesn't show Theatre of war entry for 1915 so presume no 14-15 Star. Why not?

There seems to be two Medal Rolls. This one has "20" in the column where everyone else has a tick - any ideas why?

The other one HERE has all crossed through

 

Soldiers Effects 

Can't get to the Pension Ledgers (FOLD 3)

If anyone can point me to further info it may help why no Star awarded

I have had issues with other ancestors from the area as many families of the same surname named their off spring the same christian name in the same village for births sometimes the same year.

Thanks in advance

Jon

[jay dubaya]

Could the lack of Star be that he hadn’t actually entered a theatre of war?

[jonbem]

6 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Could the lack of Star be that he hadn’t actually entered a theatre of war?

So drowned due to ship being sunk by a German U-Boat does not constitute being in the "theatre"?

[jay dubaya]

It’s beyond my knowledge and it was just a thought. It would seem harsh if it was the reason. 

[jonbem]

I would have thought that as soon as  28 July 1915, Royal Edward embarked 1,367 officers and men at Avonmouth and set sail that they would qualify.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, jonbem said:

I would have thought that as soon as  28 July 1915, Royal Edward embarked 1,367 officers and men at Avonmouth and set sail that they would qualify.

 

  No, its when they land in a theatre of war not when they leave UK.  Sunk on the way there?  Well, the formula for casualties used by Their Lordships seems to apply-  "The following casualties have been sustained in meeting the general hazards of war"

[jonbem]

1 hour ago, jonbem said:

There seems to be two Medal Rolls. This one has "20" in the column where everyone else has a tick - any ideas why?

The other one HERE has all crossed through

Any ideas on the number "20"?

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, jonbem said:

I would have thought that as soon as  28 July 1915, Royal Edward embarked 1,367 officers and men at Avonmouth and set sail that they would qualify.

Once he left his native shore he qualified for the the British War Medal. As neither he nor his comrades entered a theatre of war they did not qualify for the Victory Medal or Star.  It has been discussed previously here but I can't find the thread as pointed out above simply a 'hazard of war'.

 

I imagine the '20' is simply an admin reference to denote the entry was incorrect, unlike the tick, but it's full meaning in the context of the Roll is lost.  For example on p296 of the roll the ticks are in green ink and the code appears to be IO in this section it looks as though 18 medals were not engraved, it may be the notation which appears elsewhere though I can't find the slip has a similar meaning.

[jonbem]

40 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Once he left his native shore he qualified for the the British War Medal. As neither he nor his comrades entered a theatre of war they did not qualify for the Victory Medal or Star.  It has been discussed previously here but I can't find the thread as pointed out above simply a 'hazard of war'.

 

I imagine the '20' is simply an admin reference to denote the entry was incorrect, unlike the tick, but it's full meaning in the context of the Roll is lost.  For example on p296 of the roll the ticks are in green ink and the code appears to be IO in this section it looks as though 18 medals were not engraved, it may be the notation which appears elsewhere though I can't find the slip has a similar meaning.

thanks Ken

So I suppose they don't count the sea as a theatre, unless you were in the navy, even if you are just off shore and heading there!

rgds

Jon

[jonbem]

Sadly, his brother Bertie was also KIA, exactly two years later to the day, 13 Aug 1917 as opposed to Fred on 13 Aug 1915, although this was near Nieuwpoort, Belgium.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/164631/B J WARD/

I wish I had been up to date with my family tree research as I was staying near there in October 2019 and could have visited his grave.

 

PRIVATE B J WARD

Service Number: 38612

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Lancashire Fusiliers

16th Bn.

Date of Death

Died 13 August 1917

Buried or commemorated at

RAMSCAPPELLE ROAD MILITARY CEMETERY

I. A. 21.

Belgium

From the grave location noted I am looking at the point I have indicated with the red star on the plan below (from CWGC), unless anyone disagrees.

I'll have to go again sometime in the future.

 

[PRC]

I really must get round to writing up the names on the Saham Toney war memorial where Frederick and Bertie are remembered, as well as the Roll of Honour in the church of those from the parish who served which adds an Albert, Isaac and John Ward.

 

Until then I don't know of any of the following is of interest.

 

Norwich Mercury, Saturday September 8, 1917.

 

A REMARKABLE CO-INCIDENCE……………………………………

 

Official information has been conveyed to Mrs. Pealing, of Saham Toney, that her son, Private Bertie James Ward, of the Lancashire Fusiliers, was killed in action in France on August 13th. Mrs. Pealing has had four sons serving in the Army, and there is a remarkable co-incidence in the dates of the casualties to them. Private Frederick Ward, of the Essex Regiment, who was the fifth youngest son, was drowned on August 13th, 1915, the ship on which he was being torpedoed. Private John Ward, of the Suffolk Regiment, the third son, was taken prisoner on the Western Front on August 13th, 1916, and now Private Bertie James Ward, the second son, has been killed as above. Corporal Isaac Ward, of the Essex Regiment, was wounded in April last, and is still in hospital. A cousin of the Wards, Private William E. Skipper, who was brought up by Mrs. Pealing as a member of the family, is also serving, and is at present in England.

(Also appeared in the Eastern Daily Press, edition dated Wednesday, September 12, 1917 under the title "The Fatal Thirteenth" and in a form that is slightly differently worded but with no material difference in meaning.)

 

Norwich Mercury, Saturday September 11, 1915.

From a Photo Gallery of local men lost with the Royal Edward.

(7) Private Fred Ward, 1st Essex Regiment, of Saham Toney (missing)

(Unfortunately the source, a microfilm copy, has been heavilly scratched and I'm currently having problems getting Photoshop to work so can't attempt repairs).

Note the Norfolk Regiment cap badge.

 

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[jonbem]

Peter

that is exvellent, many thanks.

as for 

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

having problems getting Photoshop

try this free one, it is quite good

GIMP - GNU Image Manipulation Program

 

regards

Jon

[jonbem]

Fred & Berties grand father James Ward (1835-1926) was my maternal Grt Grt Grandfather 

In the image below bottom row that is my Grandfather Robert and Grandmother Mabel towards the right, 3 steps left is Grt Uncle Fred who was killed near Roclincourt/Vimy Ridge Battle of Arras 9 April 1917, and the two memorial images to the left is Fred and Bertie

[PRC]

If it's of interest.

 

Picture of the panel from the Saham Toney memorial in St. George.

 

 

And the Roll of Honour in the same church.

 

 

I have Isaac down as probably -

Private 20800 Isaac Ward, Essex Regiment who went on to become Private 591876 Labour Corps.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5741558

 

I take it you are aware of the piece in Le Petres "History of the Norfolk Regiment".

Colonel Tonge refers to the loss of 300 men, the best draft that ever left Felixstowe. These men volunteered to join the Essex Regiment and appear to have constituted the drafts of June 23 and July 24 1915. They were part of the reinforcements carried by the transport "Royal Edward" which was torpedoed and sunk in the Aegean Sea on August 14th 1915. She sank two and a half minutes after the torpedo struck her. Of the 1,400 men she carried only 600 were saved, and the drowned included all but 18 of the 300 Norfolk men.

 

As far as I can tell that Isaac was part of the replacement draft from the Norfolks sent out subsequently based on his service number. He landed at Gallipoli on the 23rd September 1915.

A casualty list that appears in the edition of the Essex Newsman dated Saturday May 26 1917 lists under Essex Regiment wounded an I. Ward, Saham Toney.

 

As to the reason behind the issue of the British War Medal only, to me it is still not clear. Part of the reason given for why the loss had been so significant for the draft from the Norfolks is that they had been on a route march at Alexandria prior to re-embarkation on the Royal Edward. I can only assume they had not formally been taken on the strength of the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force and so had not formally entered a Theatre of War, even though they had been in Egypt.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[jonbem]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

I take it you are aware of the piece in Le Petres "History of the Norfolk Regiment".

 

No I wasn't

I have only just today been looking for the info so many thanks once again.

Don't forget to try thr software I pointed out

regards

Jon

[jonbem]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Private John Ward, of the Suffolk Regiment, the third son, was taken prisoner on the Western Front on August 13th, 1916,

I've got John as Bedford Rgt.

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920

[PRC]

Crossed - I was just typing out the same thing and then managed to lose it. There is a memo in the records saying he is owed money from the estate of Bertie and some confusion over whether he was 2nd Suffolks or 2nd Bedfords attached 2nd Suffolks when he was captured at Guillemont on the 18th August 1916.

 

Seems there was some journalistic licence or a family legend in the making in that original press report.

 

I had trouble initially as I couldn't find any ICRC record for him under either Regiment - and still can't.

I couldn't see any Suffolk Regiment number on his paperwork - only 28003, his Bedfordshire Regiment one, which he appears to have retained on repatriation after the war. That would tend to suggest either attached to the Suffolks rather tha posted, or clerical laziness as I'd expect a new number to be issued on his reposting in 1918 to the Bedfordshire Regiment Depot and subsequently the 3rd Battalion.

 

FindMyPast link for his service records https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7306797%2F15%2F350

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

PS - will save the GIMP link but Photoshop isn't the only program I'm having problems with, so I'm now looking at either re-installing the original Windows OS or biting the bullet and going Windows 10, but losing the use of some legacy software that is not compatible.

[jonbem]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

I had trouble initially as I couldn't find any ICRC record for him under either Regiment - and still can't.

 

I can't either, looked under Bedfords, Hertforshire and Suffolks

[jonbem]

So on the last page of the record

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920

posted & attached to 2nd Suffoks

 

[PRC]

Going back to Fred for a moment - as you know he was 18000 Norfolk Regiment and enlisted Norwich.

 

17989 Arthur Ludkin was enlisted 12th January 1915.

18001 George West was enlisted 12th January 1915

 

By that stage the number of wartime service battalions raised by the Norfolk Regiment was complete, hence it is likely all three men would have gone to either or the 3rd or the 10th Battalion for training. In Freds' case we know that to be the 3rd Battalion.

 

Cheers

[jonbem]

Here is the War Diary on Ancestry for 2nd Suffolks

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920

August 1916 from image 38

I shall have a read, including the week previous to see if any mention. (though it may now be over the long weekend!)

National Archives 2 Battalion Suffolk Regiment | The National Archives

Reference:	WO 95/1437/1
Description:	2 Battalion Suffolk Regiment
Date:	1915 Nov. - 1919 Apr.

[jonbem]

1 hour ago, jonbem said:

So on the last page of the record

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920

posted & attached to 2nd Suffoks

In the 2 Suffolk War Dairy on Ancestry Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920

it goes from image 31 end 20th July to Image 32 start 25 July. So what happened 21 to 24 July When John Ward was attached on 23 July?

[jonbem]

2 minutes ago, jonbem said:

it goes from image 31 end 20th July to Image 32 start 25 July. So what happened 21 to 24 July When John Ward was attached on 23 July?

Ah. Appendix, although it doesn't help!

[jonbem]

The diary for August, well I now need to find Appendix A. Scroll through to see if it is there I guess.

Although all this does seem to suggest his capture wasn't the 13th August.

 

[jonbem]

Hmmm?

Inconclusive, although "X Company" mentioned. as per image  46002 and referenced 18/8/1916

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920