John Brady 8th. Scottish Rifles (Cameronians)

[sarahbrady]

Hello,

 

I am trying to piece together where my great grandfather would have been during the time that he was injured in the war, and even how he came to be injured. I have managed to find a lot of information about him, but this is something my family have never known the answer to. 

 

His name was Private John Brady, and he was a part of the 8th Scottish Rifles, enlisted 11th Sept 1915. His service number was 291126 (also listed as 1040 and in one instance mis-noted as 291120) and he was discharged on 4th Nov 1918 after receiving a gun shot wound to the head. We know he had to have a metal place put in and he survived his injuries, but we're unsure as to where he would've been at this time and what battle (if any) he was in that would've caused this injury. I haven't been able to find any medical records for him, but some of his pension records note the GSW to the head. I'm assuming he was discharged right after receiving the injury, so I'm interested to know the whereabouts of the 8th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in November of 1918. 

 

Any help would be so greatly appreciated. It is something my family has always wondered about and we would love to get to the bottom of it.

 

Thanks,

Sarah

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, sarahbrady said:

Hello,

 

I am trying to piece together where my great grandfather would have been during the time that he was injured in the war, and even how he came to be injured. I have managed to find a lot of information about him, but this is something my family have never known the answer to. 

 

His name was Private John Brady, and he was a part of the 8th Scottish Rifles, enlisted 11th Sept 1915. His service number was 291126 (also listed as 1040 and in one instance mis-noted as 291120) and he was discharged on 4th Nov 1918 after receiving a gun shot wound to the head. We know he had to have a metal place put in and he survived his injuries, but we're unsure as to where he would've been at this time and what battle (if any) he was in that would've caused this injury. I haven't been able to find any medical records for him, but some of his pension records note the GSW to the head. I'm assuming he was discharged right after receiving the injury, so I'm interested to know the whereabouts of the 8th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in November of 1918. 

 

Any help would be so greatly appreciated. It is something my family has always wondered about and we would love to get to the bottom of it.

 

Thanks,

Sarah

 

Hi Sarah, welcome to the forum. John is unlikely to have been discharged immediately after being wounded as he would have spent time in hospital and then convalescing. As such the date is almost certainly prior to November 1918. 

 

What you may like to view is the War Diary for the 8th Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) for the period 1st April 1918 to 28th February 1919 available for free download, once registered, at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353924 This document is unlikely to name John but should give a day by day account of what the battalion was doing including actions it was involved in, casualty numbers and other information that maybe of interest.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Pat Atkins]

Not much help, I'm afraid, but Ancestry has transcripts of five post-war pension cards to 291126 Pte John Brady - two relating to a claim for a disability pension and one under 'Other Ranks, Survived'; however, there is also one relating to a widow's pension claim, and one under 'Other Ranks, Died'. Perhaps your gt-grandfather died sometime post-war as a result of his wounds?

 

Unfortunately, I can't access images of the cards (I think you'd need to subscribe to Fold3 for that) so can't tell you more except that his residence is given as Shettleston, Glasgow on the disability card, and his widow's name is given as Elizabeth and her residence as 'Gertes' Manchester - see below, image courtesy of Ancestry. In my experience of Ancestry's transcriptions, that's possibly Greater Manchester; one of the other cards says 'Moss side'.

 

Pat

 

PS re his two service numbers, they look like his original Territorial Force number (1040), and then the 6-digit number he was given when the whole TF was renumbered at the beginning of 1917.

 

 

[sarahbrady]

51 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Hi Sarah, welcome to the forum. John is unlikely to have been discharged immediately after being wounded as he would have spent time in hospital and then convalescing. As such the date is almost certainly prior to November 1918. 

 

What you may like to view is the War Diary for the 8th Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) for the period 1st April 1918 to 28th February 1919 available for free download, once registered, at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353924 This document is unlikely to name John but should give a day by day account of what the battalion was doing including actions it was involved in, casualty numbers and other information that maybe of interest.

 

Thank you so much for this, what an interesting find and something that definitely foots the bill for what was going on at the time! The list of hospital admissions/injuries for this area would be the ultimate goal but I think that is going to be unrealistic. Thanks again.

[sarahbrady]

31 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Not much help, I'm afraid, but Ancestry has transcripts of five post-war pension cards to 291126 Pte John Brady - two relating to a claim for a disability pension and one under 'Other Ranks, Survived'; however, there is also one relating to a widow's pension claim, and one under 'Other Ranks, Died'. Perhaps your gt-grandfather died sometime post-war as a result of his wounds?

 

Unfortunately, I can't access images of the cards (I think you'd need to subscribe to Fold3 for that) so can't tell you more except that his residence is given as Shettleston, Glasgow on the disability card, and his widow's name is given as Elizabeth and her residence as 'Gertes' Manchester - see below, image courtesy of Ancestry. In my experience of Ancestry's transcriptions, that's possibly Greater Manchester; one of the other cards says 'Moss side'.

 

Pat

 

PS re his two service numbers, they look like his original Territorial Force number (1040), and then the 6-digit number he was given when the whole TF was renumbered at the beginning of 1917.

 

 

 

Thanks Pat for looking into this - I have scoured Ancestry, Fold3, Findmypast etc. and uncovered all records available (as far as I'm aware) that relate to John. The pension records are slightly confusing (mainly because of the scrawled pencil writing that is sometimes hard to decipher) but have still been good clues to add to the puzzle. Also interesting to know about the service numbers, thank you!

[Pat Atkins]

Should have realised you'd seen these already, good luck with the research!

 

Pat

[Tom Lang]

3 hours ago, sarahbrady said:

Hello,

 

I am trying to piece together where my great grandfather would have been during the time that he was injured in the war, and even how he came to be injured. I have managed to find a lot of information about him, but this is something my family have never known the answer to. 

 

His name was Private John Brady, and he was a part of the 8th Scottish Rifles, enlisted 11th Sept 1915. His service number was 291126 (also listed as 1040 and in one instance mis-noted as 291120) and he was discharged on 4th Nov 1918 after receiving a gun shot wound to the head. We know he had to have a metal place put in and he survived his injuries, but we're unsure as to where he would've been at this time and what battle (if any) he was in that would've caused this injury. I haven't been able to find any medical records for him, but some of his pension records note the GSW to the head. I'm assuming he was discharged right after receiving the injury, so I'm interested to know the whereabouts of the 8th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in November of 1918. 

 

Any help would be so greatly appreciated. It is something my family has always wondered about and we would love to get to the bottom of it.

 

Thanks,

Sarah

Welcome to the Forum Sarah, and good wishes on your research of your ancestor.

The War Diary for the 8th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) is a difficult read due to the quality of the handwriting (which is perfectly understandable).

During the month of October, 1918, the 8th Battalion were involved in operations to attack the town/village of ANSEGHEM.

The WD goes into a great detail to describe the Battalions activities during October.

I am attaching snippets of the last 2 pages for Oct, 1918, and the 1st page for Nov 1918.

If you PM me I can send you the complete month of October, 1918, as this is possibly where your ancestor probably sustained his injury.

I cannot see him mentioned by name - nor any other Ordinary Ranks.

You'll see on the last page for October that 11 ORs were Killed; 1 was Missing and 71 Wounded.

Hope this helps.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

 

[brianmorris547]

Tom

The WD for 22 to 28/07/1918 shows 21 other ranks wounded and 28 to 30/07/1917 shows 226 other ranks wounded. 

Sarah

Did John Brady serve in Egypt in 1916/17. Two of the names close to him on the medal rolls 291125 Alexander Aitken (SDGW 19/04/1917) and 291114 Rodger Byrne (SDGW 27/10/1917) were k in a in Egypt with 1/8 Bn. The Bn disembarked at Marseilles from Egypt on 17/04/1918 and served with 103 Infantry Brigade of 34 Div in Flanders.  

Brian

[clk]

Hi Sarah,

 

Unfortunately, I only have limited access to a couple of websites that have War Office Casualty Lists, and their search engines aren't the greatest. I didn't get any hits when searching 1917/18. If you could find one (I don't think that there is complete coverage though) then you could look for service records for men from his Regiment on the list to see when they were actually wounded then cross reference to the Battalion war diary.

 

Regards

Chris

[brianmorris547]

Sarah

I was checking the War Office Casualty Lists from Mid August 1918 to see if I could find a large list of Scottish Rifles wounded which would account for the 200 plus wounded in the July WD of 8 Bn.

This is from the WOCL 29/08/1918, the first few names of a large list which shows Brady, J 27952 (Glasgow). Of course this Brady J could be from any Bn of the Cameronians. I will keep looking.

EDIT: I could not find 27952 at first but he is James Brady of the 9th Bn. I will have another search later.

Brian

Edited 1 April , 2021 by brianmorris547

[sarahbrady]

13 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Tom

The WD for 22 to 28/07/1918 shows 21 other ranks wounded and 28 to 30/07/1917 shows 226 other ranks wounded. 

Sarah

Did John Brady serve in Egypt in 1916/17. Two of the names close to him on the medal rolls 291125 Alexander Aitken (SDGW 19/04/1917) and 291114 Rodger Byrne (SDGW 27/10/1917) were k in a in Egypt with 1/8 Bn. The Bn disembarked at Marseilles from Egypt on 17/04/1918 and served with 103 Infantry Brigade of 34 Div in Flanders.  

Brian

 

Hi Brian,

Thank you for digging out this information. I can only assume that he did, as he enlisted the end of 1915 and didn't get discharged until the end of 1918. Although I can only really go by the movements of the 8th Bn and assume he was with for this entire time period. He might have even sustained his injury much earlier than I've been thinking, as even nowadays if you were shot in the head it wouldn't be an in-and-out hospital job. Possibly he needed treatment for months.

Edited 1 April , 2021 by sarahbrady

[sarahbrady]

10 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Sarah,

 

Unfortunately, I only have limited access to a couple of websites that have War Office Casualty Lists, and their search engines aren't the greatest. I didn't get any hits when searching 1917/18. If you could find one (I don't think that there is complete coverage though) then you could look for service records for men from his Regiment on the list to see when they were actually wounded then cross reference to the Battalion war diary.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Hi Chris, thanks for taking the time to look into this. From my limited research experience, there seems to be better record of casualties than there is of wounded soldiers so I'm wondering if there is much out there, but I think you suggestion seems like a good plan. I will endeavour! Thank you.

[sarahbrady]

19 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

Sarah

I was checking the War Office Casualty Lists from Mid August 1918 to see if I could find a large list of Scottish Rifles wounded which would account for the 200 plus wounded in the July WD of 8 Bn.

This is from the WOCL 29/08/1918, the first few names of a large list which shows Brady, J 27952 (Glasgow). Of course this Brady J could be from any Bn of the Cameronians. I will keep looking.

Brian

 

Wow I haven't seen anything like this before, although in my research so far I have come across a number of John or J Brady's in the Scottish Rifles with different service numbers, so assume this probably isn't him. He was from Glasgow though (although born in Belfast).

 

Is this list just for casualties aka those who died, rather than those injured/wounded? I've found it hard to find any lists regarding injuries. Thank you so much for looking into this though, I really appreciate it. 

Edited 1 April , 2021 by sarahbrady

[clk]

Hi Sarah,

 

The lists are broken down by the date of the report (rather than the date of the event), then under headings such as killed, wounded, missing, etc. Then under those headings they are broken by Regiment - as in the image that Brian posted. The National Library of Scotland have quite a few from 1917 and 1918 which are free to search and view. The search page is here, though the search engine isn't that good. The images are in colour, and tend to be clearer than the one 'up thread'. When I tried to find something for John using combinations of surname, service number and unit, I didn't get any relevant hits. That might be because they don't have the list that John would have appeared on, or some kind of OCR issue. Then again it might just have been me. Findmypast also have some casualty lists from the last couple of years of the war - their search page is here, though for me it is even less friendly than the NLS one. The FMP images are B&W, and often a bit blurred.  Unfortunately, I don't have a subscription to The Genealogist (I think that they may do a free trial period), so can't drill down into these results, to see if they might give you something.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 1 April , 2021 by clk

[brianmorris547]

Sarah

I found 291126 on the WOCL dated 13/09/1918. His NOK is shown as Moss Side (see post from Pat). Another long list of Scottish Rifles. The date of the list is consistent with being wounded towards the end of July. It generally took four to six weeks from the event to the OCLs (and two weeks to make the local papers if the family submitted a brief biography and photo).

Brian

[sarahbrady]

17 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

Sarah

I found 291126 on the WOCL dated 13/09/1918. His NOK is shown as Moss Side (see post from Pat). Another long list of Scottish Rifles. The date of the list is consistent with being wounded towards the end of July. It generally took four to six weeks from the event to the OCLs (and two weeks to make the local papers if the family submitted a brief biography and photo).

Brian

 

Brian this is amazing! I can't believe you took the time to look for this, I'm amazed. Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was looking for and with the diaries mentioned in the posts above gives a clear indication of when and where this occurred. Thank you again for all your help, as well as everyone else on this forum. 

[brianmorris547]

Sarah

I have downloaded the page from FMP in case you feel like doing a forensic examination of the names on the list as Chris suggested. I can e mail if you send me a pm.

It might not be necessary because it seems highly likely that he was wounded between 23 and 29 July, most probably on 29 July.

There is a lot of reading for you. In late July 1918 103 Infantry Brigade took part in a French counter attack on the Marne. The War Diaries you need to see are all on Ancestry if you have access.

1/8 Scottish Rifles     Various Infantry Brigades - 34 Div - Piece 2467 July 1918 starts on p 632/931

103 Infantry Brigade  Various Infantry Brigades - 34 Div - Piece 2465. There are maps of the area attached to the July WD on p 298 & 299/761

34 Div HQ    Divisional HQ- 34 Div - Piece 2436 There are maps showing the ground 1/8 advanced over and the Bn position on 29/07/1918 p 707 & 711/761

Please ask if you need assistance.

Brian

Edited 1 April , 2021 by brianmorris547

[clk]

Hi Sarah,

 

I must say that's an excellent find by Brian - I didn't find it. With the date of the list - here's a link to the NLS version.

 

Regards

Chris

[sarahbrady]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Sarah

I have downloaded the page from FMP in case you feel like doing a forensic examination of the names on the list as Chris suggested. I can e mail if you send me a pm.

It might not be necessary because it seems highly likely that he was wounded between 23 and 29 July, most probably on 29 July.

There is a lot of reading for you. In late July 1918 103 Infantry Brigade took part in a French counter attack on the Marne. The War Diaries you need to see are all on Ancestry if you have access.

1/8 Scottish Rifles     Various Infantry Brigades - 34 Div - Piece 2467 July 1918 starts on p 632/931

103 Infantry Brigade  Various Infantry Brigades - 34 Div - Piece 2465. There are maps of the area attached to the July WD on p 298 & 299/761

34 Div HQ    Divisional HQ- 34 Div - Piece 2436 There are maps showing the ground 1/8 advanced over and the Bn position on 29/07/1918 p 707 & 711/761

Please ask if you need assistance.

Brian

 

Do you have a link to those, specifically the one with the maps? I have access to Ancestry so should be able to view them. 

[clk]

They are far easier to download from the National Archives. After registration (which is free and straightforward), the downloads themselves are also free. Covering July 1918, they are here, here, and here.

 

Whilst the flow of paper which resulted in the casualty list may have varied, I would still be tempted to try to sample the wounded men. For example, from the same daily report, there are 2 Scottish Rifles men under the 'killed' heading - 12540 Redden who died on 10.8.1918, and 42997 Totten who died on 11.8.1918. The wounded men might represent some kind of bundle together/catch up list over a wider period of time, rather than within a couple of days of each other.

Edited 1 April , 2021 by clk