1/Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 1914 Star 10049 Pte Covey

[thomas.ham]

Morning,

 

I have a 1914 Star to 10049 Pte Robert Covey. He was a member of 1/DCLI and his number puts him as a regular join in winter 1912-13. However, his MIC states that he earned the 1914 Star on 21 Aug 1914, five days after the Bn disembarked at Le Havre. 

 

Has anybody seen this on any other 1/DCLI 1914 Star MICs? I wonder why he didn't sail with the main body of the Bn. Surely he was too early to be a re-enforcement? I wonder if he got to Mons to join the Bn in their first action on 23 Aug.

 

I will have to get the War Diary to see if there's any detail in that, but until then has anyone seen this date before or have any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks,

 

Tom.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by thomas.ham
Spelling.

[Guest]

The date 21st August  is the "qualifying date" for the award of the 1914 Star- It does not mean that he did anything particular that day- save arrive in that "theatre of war"- 1a-France and Flanders. 

   Perfectly feasible he was in a party later than the main bulk of 1 DCLI which landed in France on 15th August.  It was the only regular battalion for Cornwall and the only one, regular or Territorial ready for service in France.

 

   You can check the Medal Roll on Ancestry. If he had come under fire at Mons, then he would have a clasp to the 1914 Star for that.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by Guest

[thomas.ham]

Thanks for the response, I agree with your point but in my experience the qualification day normally aligns with the disembarkation date, hence why I was wondering if anyone had seen this date before, as this would suggest there was indeed a later 1/DCLI party that arrived on 21 Aug.

 

Also, there were two regular Bns for Cornwall, but the 2nd Bn was in Hong Kong in August 1914. They didn't arrive in Flanders until November '14, therefore only qualifying for the 1914-15 Star.

 

[Guest]

Well, it is still going to be the disembarkation date- otherwise there would be 2 dates on the card- date of disembarkation and "date" for award. But they are one and the same thing

 

1DCLI was at The Curragh in 1914. Highly likely that there would be stragglers to the main movement of the battalion- men on leave, men sick-and,in Ireland, men packing and moving stores and buying horses-even an infantry battalion had them. I think- from vague memory-this is mentioned by Everard Wyrell in the regimental history

[SteveE]

2 hours ago, thomas.ham said:

I have a 1914 Star to 10049 Pte Robert Covey. He was a member of 1/DCLI and his number puts him as a regular join in winter 1912-13. However, his MIC states that he earned the 1914 Star on 21 Aug 1914, five days after the Bn disembarked at Le Havre. 

 

Has anybody seen this on any other 1/DCLI 1914 Star MICs? I wonder why he didn't sail with the main body of the Bn. Surely he was too early to be a re-enforcement? I wonder if he got to Mons to join the Bn in their first action on 23 Aug.

 

I will have to get the War Diary to see if there's any detail in that, but until then has anyone seen this date before or have any thoughts on this?

Tom

 

Having a very quick look at the 1914 Star Roll for the 1/DCLI it would appear that the majority of the men by far have the disembarkation date of 21 Aug 1914 recorded.  There are outliers around that date but none that I can see, after a brief look, have the earlier date of 15 August 1914.

 

Steve

 

 

[thomas.ham]

Steve,

 

That's really interesting, I hadn't considered that the main body may have had their disembarkation dates wrongly recorded!

 

Ive just checked Wyrall's history and he notes a small group of "1st reinforcements" were left behind in Ireland. The main body of the 1/DCLI cast off from Dublin on 13 Aug 1914 on 'SS Lanfranc' and arrived in Le Havre on the morning on the 15th of August. 

 

It wasn't until the 21st that the 1/DCLI were over near the combat area with the bulk of the BEF, where contact with the enemy was a possibility. I wonder if a pedant was in charge of the record keeping and saw this as the date which the men 'qualified', at least in his opinion, for the Mons Star!

 

Tom.

[BarbaraG]

His full name Robert William Henry Covey is recorded on the Medal Roll for the British War and Victory Medals. Pte 30211 Wiltshire Reg. As referenced on the MIC.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by BarbaraG

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, thomas.ham said:

Steve,

 

That's really interesting, I hadn't considered that the main body may have had their disembarkation dates wrongly recorded!

 

Ive just checked Wyrall's history and he notes a small group of "1st reinforcements" were left behind in Ireland. The main body of the 1/DCLI cast off from Dublin on 13 Aug 1914 on 'SS Lanfranc' and arrived in Le Havre on the morning on the 15th of August. 

 

It wasn't until the 21st that the 1/DCLI were over near the combat area with the bulk of the BEF, where contact with the enemy was a possibility. I wonder if a pedant was in charge of the record keeping and saw this as the date which the men 'qualified', at least in his opinion, for the Mons Star!

 

Tom.

 

   There is always a discrepancy-  leave the UK one day and arrive in France the next. With the 1 DCLI, I think they may have "left" on 15th August-that is, left their home base- but arrived on 21st.  Or it's just a mistake.  It would take longer than most battalions to get from The Curragh to France.  What does Wyrell say about the journey?  

[BarbaraG]

Are there any War Diaries for the Regiment at this time??????

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352264

 

Those majority of those qualifying  for the 1914 Star appearing on the same page as Robert (surnames ‘C’) recorded as disembarked on the 21 August 1914. Several are recorded with the dates when they were killed in action. The Medal Roll is dated 3 April 1918.

 

If able to access Medal Roll on Ancestry ref. 232 of 371 - therefore several pages to view for same disembarkation date and subsequent fate. Robert would later have been transferred to Wilts Reg. - other experts might clarify this.

 

He seems to have survived and died in 1957 in Southampton.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by BarbaraG

[BarbaraG]

(Sorry been on learning curve with iPad)

Have downloaded first part of War Diary - which is legible compared to some and well worth it.

 

Adding images from Ancestry if it works....

[thomas.ham]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll have to go through the 1914 Star book on Ancestry, but from the page posted above it seems like the majority of the original 1/DCLI contingent were recorded as qualifying for the Star on 21 Aug 1914. In that case I think we can assume Pte Covey sailed from Dublin with the unit on the 13 Aug 1914 and would've seen action in the early battles at Mons and Le Cateau.

 

What would the green 'C' in the column on the right denote? The casualties by the look of it?

 

Thanks again.

Edited 31 March , 2021 by thomas.ham
Error.

[SteveE]

59 minutes ago, thomas.ham said:

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll have to go through the 1914 Star book on Ancestry, but from the page posted above it seems like the majority of the original 1/DCLI contingent were recorded as qualifying for the Star on 21 Aug 1914. In that case I think we can assume Pte Covey sailed from Dublin with the unit on the 13 Aug 1914 and would've seen action in the early battles at Mons and Le Cateau.

 

What would the green 'C' in the column on the right denote? The casualties by the look of it?

Tom

 

The war diary is consistent with Wyrell's history with regards dates etc. so I suspect that, despite disembarking at Havre on 15 August 1914, the clerk responsible deemed the 21 August 1914 date as the 'qualifying date' for when the battalion reached a suitably forward position.  The battalion still wasn't in Belgium at the time, they crossed the border on 22 August so not really sure where the 21st date fits in... 

 

I was going to suggest it was possibly the 'qualifying date' for the clasp when the 1/DCLI reached a position of being 'in touch' with the enemy's artillery but the clasp wasn't authorised until after the 1914 Star roll was compiled so that 21 August 1914 date was there from the outset...

 

As for the green 'C', it does indeed appear to be linked to those who became casualties but I wonder though if it signifies the issue of the clasp?  I'm sure I've read on the forum before that the clasp (without roses) was sent out to the next of kin automatically whereas the survivors had to claim the clasp and roses to go with their already issued 1914 Star?  Perhaps a forum expert can enlighten...

 

Steve

[Pat Atkins]

For comparison re the duration of the voyage: 5th Signals Company RE (the Divisional Sigs for 5th Infantry Div) left Dublin North Wall on SS Archimedes at 2am 16th August 1914 and arrived Havre 5pm on 17th August. 

 

[thomas.ham]

3 hours ago, SteveE said:

Tom

 

The war diary is consistent with Wyrell's history with regards dates etc. so I suspect that, despite disembarking at Havre on 15 August 1914, the clerk responsible deemed the 21 August 1914 date as the 'qualifying date' for when the battalion reached a suitably forward position.  The battalion still wasn't in Belgium at the time, they crossed the border on 22 August so not really sure where the 21st date fits in... 

 

I was going to suggest it was possibly the 'qualifying date' for the clasp when the 1/DCLI reached a position of being 'in touch' with the enemy's artillery but the clasp wasn't authorised until after the 1914 Star roll was compiled so that 21 August 1914 date was there from the outset...

 

As for the green 'C', it does indeed appear to be linked to those who became casualties but I wonder though if it signifies the issue of the clasp?  I'm sure I've read on the forum before that the clasp (without roses) was sent out to the next of kin automatically whereas the survivors had to claim the clasp and roses to go with their already issued 1914 Star?  Perhaps a forum expert can enlighten...

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

You can see in the 1914 Star book which soldiers had 'clasps and roses' issued by the hand written annotations. Interesting to note all the dead did not have an annotation but do have the green 'C' (supporting the idea that those KIA/DoW/MIA received them automatically) and only Covey and Calvert of the few survivors seemed to have not claimed them. 

 

Edited 31 March , 2021 by thomas.ham

[Keith_history_buff]

In a lot of cases, the war strength of a battalion is about 1,000 men. When you look on the medal roll, you find 1,000 other men who also served, arriving with the battalion from August to November 1914.

 

Hope this is of interest. The first time I looked at a battalion roll, I was expecting to see 1,000 men who arrived on the same day.

[Keith_history_buff]

5 hours ago, SteveE said:

As for the green 'C', it does indeed appear to be linked to those who became casualties but I wonder though if it signifies the issue of the clasp?  I'm sure I've read on the forum before that the clasp (without roses) was sent out to the next of kin automatically whereas the survivors had to claim the clasp and roses to go with their already issued 1914 Star?  Perhaps a forum expert can enlighten...

 

Steve

Although not well documented, there was an initiative to automatically issue the roses to the next of kin of deceased ORs. A cluster of men will be associated with the green pencil "C". The medal roll should have a summary of how many people were covered by "C", as well as a clasp reference and an Issue Voucher.

This does seem to vary from battalion to battalion. Sometimes you observe "C", and in other cases it has been broken down into smaller groups marked as "C1", "C2" etc. This topic is worth a thread in its own right. What is needed is analysis of the various battalion 1914 Star rolls.

 

[SteveE]

3 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Although not well documented, there was an initiative to automatically issue the roses to the next of kin of deceased ORs. A cluster of men will be associated with the green pencil "C". The medal roll should have a summary of how many people were covered by "C", as well as a clasp reference and an Issue Voucher.

Thanks for the pointer, you are indeed correct.  At the beginning of the roll is exactly what you suggest and there’s the summary for the issue of the clasp to the next of kin of the deceased ORs.

 

 

[Image from National Archives ref. WO 329/2453 via Ancestry.co.uk]

Edited 31 March , 2021 by SteveE
Reference added

[Pat Atkins]

For corroboration: have just found the same C-annotation in the 1914 Star rolls entries of 1st Norfolk men in the same circumstances.