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Lance corporal James porter 18235


Keith Jenkins

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Yes,

 

His name was James Porter, and he had the service number of 18235.

 

With your post/request, a please and thank you may help elicit more productive replies.

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Keith,

 

I assume you mean 18235 James Porter, Yorkshire Regiment.

Landed Gallipoli 08/09/15, so qualified for 1914/15 Star, Victory Medal & British War Medal.

Born Eldon Colliery and resident Easington Colliery, he enlisted at Sunderland.

He was Killed in Action on the 5th November 1916 serving with the 7th Battalion.

He has no known grave and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

Additional family information on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website is that he was the "Son of Harry and Amelia Porter, of 77, Station Rd., Easington Colliery, Co. Durham."

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1548849/JAMES PORTER/

 

If so there are a number of directions a search for information could go off in, so it will probably help us to help you if you can tell us what you already know, and what sort of information you are looking for.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

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2 minutes ago, PRC said:

Keith,

 

I assume you mean 18235 James Porter, Yorkshire Regiment.

Landed Gallipoli 08/09/15, so qualified for 1914/15 Star, Victory Medal & British War Medal.

Born Eldon Colliery and resident Easington Colliery, he enlisted at Sunderland.

He was Killed in Action on the 5th November 1916 serving with the 7th Battalion.

He has no known grave and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

Additional family information on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website is that he was the "Son of Harry and Amelia Porter, of 77, Station Rd., Easington Colliery, Co. Durham."

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1548849/JAMES PORTER/

 

If so there are a number of directions a search for information could go off in, so it will probably help us to help you if you can tell us what you already know, and what sort of information you are looking for.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Thanks I have researched him that far but never knew about the medal 

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I believe only the 6th Battalion went to Gallipoli.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/alexandra-princess-of-waless-own-yorkshire-regiment-green-howards/

 

However if the clerk completing the Service Medal Roll for his British War Medal and the Victory Medal followed the instructions it should show all the units served with overseas - that one is on Ancestry only. That will give you some idea of the battalions he served with overseas and in what order.

 

Doesn't look like there are any surviving service records.

 

Soldiers didn't routinely transfer between Battalions, so likely he was either wounded, accidentally injured or had health issues  and so had to come off the strength of one battalion and on recovery was posted to another. Only woundings are covered by the Casualty Lists, but for men serving at Gallipoli dysentery \ enteric fever and typhoid were as likely to see them so badly incapacitated that they ended up being shipped back to the UK.

 

Casualty Lists for the period turn up in The Times, as well as in many regional newspapers - they can be viewed and searched via the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, the newspaper & periodicals option on FindMyPast, or the relevant subscription level on Ancestry. Relevant local newspapers may have reports of him being incapacitated for any reason and are also the most likely source of finding a picture.

 

War diaries are unlikely to mention him by name, but will give a feel for where they were and what they were up to.

The 6th Battalion ones for the time they were at Gallipoli can only be viewed via a subscription to Ancestry.

The 7th Battalion ones can be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with an account, but even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. (No financial details required).

This part covers July 1915 to February 1918 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352931

 

Ancestry will also have his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects. This was a financial ledger rather than an inventory and should show who got the balance of his pay, plus who got his War Gratuity when this was paid. One of the wise souls on the forum has set up a subscription website where you can use the date of death and the amount of War Gratuity to get a fair idea of the date of enlistment.

 

This can then be firmed up by looking for men with nearby service numbers to see if they have either surviving service records or were entitled to receive the Silver War Badge, (SWB) as a result of being honourably discharged - the vast majority were issued to men who were discharged on account of their wounds or illnesses contracted \ exarcerbated while serving. The associated SWB Roll includes information like date of enlistment. Scans of the pages are available on Ancestry, transcriptions on FindMyPast and gobbledygoop,  sorry, something is available on Forces War Records. For those with surviving service records, their initial army career may give some idea of the path James followed.

 

Doesn't look like there was any soldiers will or civil probate for him but you can check here https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

 

If anyone had any financial dependancy on him - in this case most likely his mother or father - then they had grounds for a Dependants Pension claim. Ministry of Pensions control cards for these were rescued from the skip and have nearly all been transcribed and put on line. Transcriptions are available on Ancestry, and scans of the actual documents can be seen on Ancestrys' sister site, Fold3, which needs a separate subscription.

 

It doesn't like like a missing persons enquiry was recieved by the International Committe of the Red Cross for James, but again you can check here :- https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

ICRC records are also indexed and searchable on FindMyPast. FindMyPast also has nothing for him in terms of a British Red Cross record for a missing person.

 

Using a source like Geoff's Search Engine you can also pull a list from the database of men of the same unit who died on the same day. http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search1421.php

Looks like there were 20 including James. Some like Corporal 10063 J Smith were discovered on the battlefield - in his case in 1936, and subsequently formerly buried. On his Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage there is an attached document called a Concentration report. This shows he was found at Map Reference Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.26

The same location also yielded the body of Private 3/8725 A. Bentley.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2945553/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2945553/#&gid=2&pid=1

It looks like it would be possible to identify where 6 of the 20 fell on the battlefield, and then using the tmapper application, (other mapping sources are available), you could map them to a copy of a contemporary trench map which will then translate then using google maps, streetviews and satellite imagery into what the location looks like now.

 

As I said initially, there are many ways the search for information could go, (not of all them necessarily successfully:), so let us know what interests you - I haven't even started on the genealogy side yet!

 

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

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Medal rolls on Ancestry show that he served with the 6th Battalion first, and then the 7th Battalion. The 1914-15 Star roll shows that his initial disembarkation in a theatre of war was on 8 September 1915. Unfortunately there is no indication of when he transferred from the 6th to the 7th Battalion in the British War Medal and Victory Medal roll.

 

Edited to add that the 6th Battalion War Diary on Ancestry notes that on 8 September 1915 a number of officers and 491 other ranks joined the battalion from the 3rd and 11th Battalions.

 

All images sourced from Ancestry:

 

British War Medal and Victory Medal roll

41629_626640_11611-00283.jpg

 

1914-15 Star roll

41804_626640_12063-00068.jpg

 

Excerpt from the 6th Battalion War Dairy for 8 September 1915

42871_625537_11834-00035.jpg

Edited by Tawhiri
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8 hours ago, clk said:

Yes,

 

His name was James Porter, and he had the service number of 18235.

 

With your post/request, a please and thank you may help elicit more productive replies.

Thanks for the assistance appreciate the help never normally forget. 

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7 hours ago, PRC said:

I believe only the 6th Battalion went to Gallipoli.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/alexandra-princess-of-waless-own-yorkshire-regiment-green-howards/

 

However if the clerk completing the Service Medal Roll for his British War Medal and the Victory Medal followed the instructions it should show all the units served with overseas - that one is on Ancestry only. That will give you some idea of the battalions he served with overseas and in what order.

 

Doesn't look like there are any surviving service records.

 

Soldiers didn't routinely transfer between Battalions, so likely he was either wounded, accidentally injured or had health issues  and so had to come off the strength of one battalion and on recovery was posted to another. Only woundings are covered by the Casualty Lists, but for men serving at Gallipoli dysentery \ enteric fever and typhoid were as likely to see them so badly incapacitated that they ended up being shipped back to the UK.

 

Casualty Lists for the period turn up in The Times, as well as in many regional newspapers - they can be viewed and searched via the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, the newspaper & periodicals option on FindMyPast, or the relevant subscription level on Ancestry. Relevant local newspapers may have reports of him being incapacitated for any reason and are also the most likely source of finding a picture.

 

War diaries are unlikely to mention him by name, but will give a feel for where they were and what they were up to.

The 6th Battalion ones for the time they were at Gallipoli can only be viewed via a subscription to Ancestry.

The 7th Battalion ones can be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with an account, but even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. (No financial details required).

This part covers July 1915 to February 1918 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352931

 

Ancestry will also have his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects. This was a financial ledger rather than an inventory and should show who got the balance of his pay, plus who got his War Gratuity when this was paid. One of the wise souls on the forum has set up a subscription website where you can use the date of death and the amount of War Gratuity to get a fair idea of the date of enlistment.

 

This can then be firmed up by looking for men with nearby service numbers to see if they have either surviving service records or were entitled to receive the Silver War Badge, (SWB) as a result of being honourably discharged - the vast majority were issued to men who were discharged on account of their wounds or illnesses contracted \ exarcerbated while serving. The associated SWB Roll includes information like date of enlistment. Scans of the pages are available on Ancestry, transcriptions on FindMyPast and gobbledygoop,  sorry, something is available on Forces War Records. For those with surviving service records, their initial army career may give some idea of the path James followed.

 

Doesn't look like there was any soldiers will or civil probate for him but you can check here https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

 

If anyone had any financial dependancy on him - in this case most likely his mother or father - then they had grounds for a Dependants Pension claim. Ministry of Pensions control cards for these were rescued from the skip and have nearly all been transcribed and put on line. Transcriptions are available on Ancestry, and scans of the actual documents can be seen on Ancestrys' sister site, Fold3, which needs a separate subscription.

 

It doesn't like like a missing persons enquiry was recieved by the International Committe of the Red Cross for James, but again you can check here :- https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

ICRC records are also indexed and searchable on FindMyPast. FindMyPast also has nothing for him in terms of a British Red Cross record for a missing person.

 

Using a source like Geoff's Search Engine you can also pull a list from the database of men of the same unit who died on the same day. http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search1421.php

Looks like there were 20 including James. Some like Corporal 10063 J Smith were discovered on the battlefield - in his case in 1936, and subsequently formerly buried. On his Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage there is an attached document called a Concentration report. This shows he was found at Map Reference Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.26

The same location also yielded the body of Private 3/8725 A. Bentley.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2945553/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2945553/#&gid=2&pid=1

It looks like it would be possible to identify where 6 of the 20 fell on the battlefield, and then using the tmapper application, (other mapping sources are available), you could map them to a copy of a contemporary trench map which will then translate then using google maps, streetviews and satellite imagery into what the location looks like now.

 

As I said initially, there are many ways the search for information could go, (not of all them necessarily successfully:), so let us know what interests you - I haven't even started on the genealogy side yet!

 

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Thanks Peter just fascinated as recently found out about him and my other great uncle who served in the Durham light infantry. Can't believe how much you can find out, I would not have a clue. 

 

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7th Yorkshire Battalion.

 

4th November 1916 – Battalion War Diary.

 

Location N34c1.9

 

No change in dispositions. Enemy very nervous during day, putting down heavy barrages on ZENITH and on ground behind. Orders received at night for an attack by a “battle patrol of 40 men to be made following morning on FINCH trench, N29c, in conjunction with 7/E.Yorks on right, attacks on a large scale being made further to the right + left. Crump holes between lines were to be cleared of enemy snipers during night. Two officer’s patrols of B Coy investigated the crump-holes, but found them unoccupied.

 

The following operational order was attached as an appendix at the end of the month.

50th Infantry Brigade Operations Order No.112.

Ref. Trench map and Sheet 57c SW 1/10000

 

1)     The 7/E. Yorks will attack and occupy ORION and the gun pits near it from their present front line with their left on SUNKEN ROAD about N.35.a.1.9. At the same time 7/Yorks will attack the trench N35.A.3.9 to N29.C.1.1 to be known in future as WINTER shown on attached aeroplane photo (issued to O.C. 7/E.Yorks and 7/Yorks only)

2)     These attacks are to be in the nature of battle patrols and one limited to 60 or 70 men in the case of 7/E.Yorks and 30 or 40 men in the case of 7/Yorks.

3)     Zero Hour will be notified later.

4)     On the right the 19th Bde will co-operate by bombing up SUNKEN ROAD at N.35.c.19 to N.35.a.5.5 joining there with 7/E. Yorks. There will be no attack on the immediate left but attack on a large scale will take place further on the right and left.

5)     Artillery barrage has been fixed so as to make it safe for assaulting troops to leave the front line at zero and move straight on the objective.

6)     OC 50th M.G. Company will get in touch with OC 7/E.Yorks and 7/Yorks at once and will arrange direct for covering machine gun fire. Gun fire to keep down fire of enemy snipers and Machine Guns.

7)     4 Guns of 50th T.M. Battery move into the trenches tonight and 2 guns at the disposal of each Battalion Commander.

8)     Shell holes between our front lines and the objectives will be cleared of enemy snipers and MG guns by patrol tonight.

9)     Should these attacks fail by day, fresh attacks will be made at night.

10) The front trenches on the whole Brigade front will be cleared as far as possible before ZERO to avoid casualties from enemy barrage by distributing garrison more in depth.

11) The objectives when reached will be held as lightly as possible by day. Every effort will be made during the night following the attack to link ORION to the piece of trench about N.29.c.3.0. (WINTER) and thence to the trench about N.29.c.0.5 SPRING connecting with ZENITH. The 19th Brigade are arranging to connect up the SUNKEN road to the right of 7?E.Yorks about N35a central.

12) Assaulting troops are to be warned that they may have difficulty recognising the objectives as trenches on attacking them and should know beforehand what distance they have to go.

13) Bde Hqrs will remain at S24b central.

 

Acknowledge (Sgd) H.J. Simson, Captain,

Bde Maj. 50th Bde.

 

Issued at 5.30pm thro sigs.

 

This was then followed by

 

Operational Order Ref 0 0 112 4.11.16

 

To 7 E. Yorks

7 Yorks

MG Company

 

1)     Zero will be at 11.10 am tomorrow, November 5th.

2)     Flares will be lit at zero +2 hours and at 3.30 pm.

3)     A watch is forwarded herewith to set watches by.

4)     The attack will be preceded by a bombardment of Heavy Arty – At zero an intense barrage will be placed on the front of the Div. from N.35.a.3.3 to N.29.c.1.8. This barrage will at once start creeping back at rate of 75 yds a minute to the main LE TRANSLOY line – a standing barrage will be maintained on the CEMETERY CIRCLE and on the positions of trench in N.29 a + c – a barrage will also be put on MOONRAY and SUNRAY. Before zero the Div. Arty. will search the area around ORION while a 3” battery will fire on the road junctions in N.35a and b.

 

Acknowledge.

 

Note. Battalions will inform STOKES under their orders.

 

(Sgd) H.J. Simson, Captain,

Bde Maj. 50th Bde. 7 pm

 

OPERATION ORDER S1 by Lieut. Col. R.D’. A. FIFE

Commdg. 7th YORK Regt.

 

1.     Ref. Bde. Operation Order No.112, copy issued herewith.

2.     THE SHELL HOLES between our front line and objective will be cleared tonight by bombing patrols furnished by O.C. “B” Coy., who will call upon O.C. “A” Coy for additional patrols if necessary. The men of these patrols must be warned that only shell holes between our line and objective are to be cleared and that no further advance is to be made by them tonight.

3.     THE ATTACK will be carried out by a battle patrol of “A" Coy with two bombing squads: total strength including bombers, 2 Officers, 40 O.R.

4.     ATTACK will be made in two lines – A bombing squad will be on each flank of the first line.

5.     DIRECTION. The advance will be by the right. An officer and one N.C.O. will be responsible for direction and for obtaining touch with the left of EAST YORK after the objective is reached.

6.     O.C. “A” and “B” Coys. will endeavour to cover the advance by means of Lewis and M.G. Fire which should not be opened unless the enemy first open fire.

7.     THE OBJECTIVE WILL BE CONSOLIDATED as quickly as possible after capture, for which purpose every man in the second line will carry a shovel.

8.     AFTER CAPTURE The line may be thinned by withdrawing some of the assaulting troops whose place will then be taken by one or more Lewis Guns.

9.     O.C. “A” COY will call upon O.C. “B” Coy for bomb carriers to replace bombs used in the assault.

10.  O.C. “A” COY will arrange the immediate despatch of progress reports to Battn. H.Q. by relays of orderlies. All reports to be sent in duplicate. 8 Orderlies will be supplied by Battn. H.Q. for this purpose.

11.  ACKNOWLEDGE.

 

(signed) L.V.C. HAWKES                 Lieut. Adjt.     7th York. R.

 

769232023_ZenithTrenchMapsourced7thYorksWarDiaryNovember1916.png.ee01ecc3744db64b6a51541517f137fe.png

 

5th November 1916 – Battalion War Diary

 

Location N34c1.9

 

11.10 am. A Coys battle patrol attacked in two lines. Enemy were seen in force, running from their trench, but seeing how small our assaulting party they halted and opened fire on them. CAPT. L.W. GOLDSMITH was severely wounded (+ died later in the day) and 2/Lt S.J. HOUSE was also hit. With both officers knocked out the attack did not reach the objective, or the few men who did reach it fell into the hands of greatly superior numbers of the enemy. D Coy sent up 2 platoons at dusk either to occupy ZENITH if the morning attack had succeeded, or to repeat the attempt if it had failed. It was finally ascertained about 5.45 pm that the objective was not in our hands. D Coys two platoons at 10 pm, crawling forward from ZENITH. They were soon detected by the enemy, and rifle fire was opened on them. 2/Lt A.C. GOODALL was killed, and Lt H.P. GREGORY wounded. The attack did not attain its objective. Orders were received at 9.50pm that the attack was not to take place unless the trench on our right was in the hands of the 7/E. Yorks, who had attacked in the morning. It was then too late to stop the attack which came under fire chiefly from the right flank.

 

During the day 2/Lt C.I. EYRE had been wounded by a bullet in the hand and during the shelling of our trenches CAPT. S.B. KAY was wounded and 2/Lt. R.T. RUDGE killed, B Coy being left then with one officer, 2/Lt. H. COLLINS. The remaining platoons of D.Coy in ROSE trench went up to SPECTRUM during the evening.

 

C Coy was constantly engaged in carrying rations, ammunition and bombs to the front line.

 

6th November 1916. – Battalion War Diary

 

The quietest day of the tour in the trenches. Battalion was relieved at night by 6/Dorset Regt., and returned to “F” camp near Montauban.

 

Casualties.      Officers.          Killed 3. Wounded 5

                        Other Ranks    Killed 27, Wounded 70. Missing 10.

The conditions of the trenches, which in many places were from 3’ to 4’ deep in water, and mud, and the lack of any shelter whatever caused much sickness in the nature of trench feet amongst the men.

Edited by PRC
Typo
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Hi, 

 

It looks like James probably joined up on the 7th/8th December 1914. Surviving records for 'near number' Yorkshire Regiment men show:

 

18203 Adamson - enlisted 8.12.1914

18222 Mason - enlisted 8.12.1914

18225 Derbyshire - enlisted 7.12.1914

18227 Bowman - enlisted 7.12.1914

18230 Nicholson - enlisted 7.12.1914

18229 Thornton - enlisted 7.12.1914

18235

18237 Hepburn - enlisted 7.12.1914

18242 Gormley - enlisted 7.12.1914

18258 Allan - enlisted 7.12.1914

18259 Littler- enlisted 7.12.1914

18264 Jones- enlisted 7.12.1914

18281 Collins - enlisted 8.12.1914

 

 

Edit:

Soldiers Effects (Ancestry link) introduces a slight element of doubt to the precise date of his death as it reads....on or since 5.11.16  death presumed

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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37 minutes ago, PRC said:

Location N34c1.9

In the bottom left is their location, with Zenith trench marked with the blue pin and Orion and Finch trenches visible.

image.png.35eda26f581f9627516c62c0644cadae.png

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9 hours ago, clk said:

Soldiers Effects (Ancestry link) introduces a slight element of doubt to the precise date of his death as it reads....on or since 5.11.16  death presumed

 

Suspect that’s the usual decision taken somewhere between 3 and 12 months after he was last seen and as there was no evidence to the contrary, he was presumed death. That would have allowed the clerks at the records office to kick off finalising his records and batting the ball over to Pensions if one was appropriate. Would be good to know how soon after his likely death the balance of his pay was sent out.

 

@Keith Jenkins usually the process of accepting him as dead meant that in the absence of his body being found, and there were no witness statements from other soldiers, and that formal approaches to the German Government had turned up no further information, and the representative of the Red Cross who’d interviewed prisoners hadn’t included mention of James fate, then the presumption had to be that James Porter was dead. With nothing to tie it down precisely you get the open ended statement that he died on or after the 5th November 1916.

 

So I think from the war diary entries you are looking at five likely scenario’s – minimum!.

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

A Coys battle patrol attacked in two lines. Enemy were seen in force, running from their trench, but seeing how small our assaulting party they halted and opened fire on them. CAPT. L.W. GOLDSMITH was severely wounded (+ died later in the day) and 2/Lt S.J. HOUSE was also hit. With both officers knocked out the attack did not reach the objective, or the few men who did reach it fell into the hands of greatly superior numbers of the enemy.

 

Scenario A. He was one of the 40 O.R’s in this attack, possibly one of those who got far forward. A check of the locations of those who were subsequently recovered from the battlefield may give some idea of how far the attack got. Potentially these men may have been buried by the Germans and either the report was lost in the system or the individual was mis-identified and their records are filed in the labyrinth that is the ICRC.

 

Possibly worth looking for the casualty list that includes James Porter. Some of the men posted as missing may possibly have been captured rather than died. If so there is a small possibility that an interview with the Red Cross has survived or their repatriation interview – either could mention details that might shed some light on what might have happened to James.

 

When I tried The Times last night I couldn’t find anything for James. Not sure what different criteria I have just used but now I can see him in the edition for Thursday, January 18, 1917, but under the heading Previously reported Wounded, now reported Wounded and Missing.

 

356947298_TheTimesThursdayJanuary181917JamesPorterCasualtyListsourcedTheTimesDigitalArchive.png.c550ed3befff86beedffcd2e0af6fc67.png

 

(Image courtesy of The Times Digital Archive).

 

Of the men in the same category:-

 

Campbell 14880 W. (South Shields) is Private 14880 William Campbell, 7th Battalion, killed in action on the 5th November 1916. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

Hemingway 18451 J. (Dewsbury) is Private 18451 John Arnold Hemingway, 7th Battalion, killed in action on the 5th November 1916. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

Hill 16610 R. (West Cornforth) is Private 16610 R. Hill, 7th Battalion, killed in action on the 5th November 1916. His body was recovered from the battlefield in 1920/21 along with a number of unknown British Soldiers. He was found at map reference Sheet 57c. N.27.b.5.2.

 

Townsend 16016 J. (Middlesbrough) is Private 16016 James Townsend, 7th Battalion, killed in action on the 5th November 1916. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

I’ve currently reached my monthly limit on documents I can view on FindMyPast but looks like the earlier casualty list appeared in the edition of the Newcastle Journal dated 22 December 1916.

665817526_FMPscreenshot.png.8701d6a6b28f66c964698d06b7ad8c3a.png

(Image courtesy FindMyPast)

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

D Coys two platoons at 10 pm, crawling forward from ZENITH. They were soon detected by the enemy, and rifle fire was opened on them. 2/Lt A.C. GOODALL was killed, and Lt H.P. GREGORY wounded. The attack did not attain its objective.

 

Scenario B: James was a member of one of those platoons.

 

Lieutenant Arthur Charles Goodall has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/749011/ARTHUR CHARLES GOODALL/

If an officer couldn’t be recovered then seems likely wounded men might not have been recoverable either.

 

The Craven Remembers website has several newspaper reports in connection with the death of Lieutenant Goodall. Two report a letter from his commanding officer which includes the following “He and Lieutenant Gregory took over their platoon on the night of the 5th November to attack a German trench. He was hit by a rifle bullet through the head, and never moved again. His devoted servant, Marmion, was with him and eventually brought back his watch.”

http://www.cpgw.org.uk/soldier-records/arthur-charles-goodall/

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

C Coy was constantly engaged in carrying rations, ammunition and bombs to the front line.

 

Scenario C. James was a member of Company C and was carrying bombs and ammunition forward in non-mans land when he disappeared. (Note the diary says to the front line, and Colonel Fife’s order says B Company to provide bomb carriers for the assaulting party).

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

O.C. “A” COY will arrange the immediate despatch of progress reports to Battn. H.Q. by relays of orderlies. All reports to be sent in duplicate. 8 Orderlies will be supplied by Battn. H.Q. for this purpose.

 

Scenario D. James was one of those runners – a role with a particularly high attrition rate.

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

during the shelling of our trenches CAPT. S.B. KAY was wounded and 2/Lt. R.T. RUDGE killed, B Coy being left then with one officer, 2/Lt. H. COLLINS.

 

Scenario E.  James was hit in the shelling, leaving no identifiable remains. This is probably the least likely, as there may well have been witnesses, seems less likely he would have been initially regarded as wounded, and while there might not have been any body it’s likely his fate was known at the time and there would be no significant delay before he was presumed dead.

 

However, to muddy the waters Second Lieutenant Reginald Theodore Rudge has no known grave and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/810481/REGINALD THEODORE RUDGE/

Forum member @RaySearching has posted before that Reginald was buried where he fell, (although given the condition of the trenches quoted in the diary extract for the 6th November, that might have been difiicult) and the grave was subsequently lost.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/285740-rnr-skippers-john-donaldson/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-2983915

 

Hope that is of interest,

Peter

Edited by PRC
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Hi Peter,

 

21 minutes ago, PRC said:

Suspect that’s the usual decision taken somewhere between 3 and 12 months after he was last seen and as there was no evidence to the contrary, he was presumed death. That would have allowed the clerks at the records office to kick off finalising his records...Would be good to know how soon after his likely death the balance of his pay was sent out.

 

I think that's very probably the case - the first Money Order wasn't issued (to his father, 'Harry') until the end of March 1918.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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However, to muddy the waters Second Lieutenant Reginald Theodore Rudge has no known grave and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/810481/REGINALD THEODORE RUDGE/

Forum member @RaySearching has posted before that Reginald was buried where he fell, (although given the condition of the trenches quoted in the diary extract for the 6th November, that might have been difiicult) and the grave was subsequently lost.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/285740-rnr-skippers-john-donaldson/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-2983915

 

Hope that is of interest,

Peter

 

Here is the News Cutting Re 2nd Lt R.T. Rudge

 

1207602179_17nov16rudge.JPG.1dd5ebf4e222ca0c691ddc13040d0435.JPG

 

Ray

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11 minutes ago, clk said:

I think that's very probably the case - the first Money Order wasn't issued (to his father 'Harry') until the end of March 1918.

 

 

Thanks for checking Chris - sadly looks like they probably had a backlog of such cases to investigate.

 

5 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Here is the News Cutting Re 2nd Lt R.T. Rudge

 

Thanks for that - I was a bit bemused about the idea of his being buried in a front-line trench as the war diary describes them as being in many places three to four feet deep in mud and water. Also intrigued that he had recently gone from being Battalion Transport Officer - I thought that was a job for life if anyone showed any aptitude for it!

 

I had pondered another scenario in which James Porter might have been hit by shelling while in the Transport Lines.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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5th November 1916  7th Bn Yorks Casualty List 

Last Name, Given Name(s)

Age

Birth Place

Rank

Service Number

Enlistment Location

Cemetery/Memorial

Barrow, Joseph

31

South Shields

Private

19099

South Shields

Thiepval Memorial

Bentley, Arthur

34

Melbourne

Private

3/8725

Middlesbrough

London Cemetery and Longueval Memorial

Campbell, William

 

South Shields

Private

14880

South Shields

Thiepval Memorial

Crisp, Errol

25

South Bank

Private

26371

Thirsk

Thiepval Memorial

Dennis, John William

21

Stokesley

Private

23486

West Hartlepool

Thiepval Memorial

Fearon, Michael

25

Middlesbrough

Private

3/7413

Middlesbrough

Thiepval Memorial

Goldsmith, Lewis Wilberforce

21

Lee, Kent

Captain

 

 

Thiepval Memorial

Harrison, William

27

Lazenby

Corporal

7103

Middlesbrough

Guards Cemetery, Lesbœufs

Healy, James

26

Middlesbrough

Private

27223

Stockton-on-Tees

Thiepval Memorial

Hemingway, John Arnold

26

Dewsbury

Private

18451

Dewsbury

Thiepval Memorial

Hill, Roland

33

Ferryhill

Private

16610

Sunderland

Bancourt Cemetery

Lee, Tom

20

Stokesley

Private

24395

Stokesley

Thiepval Memorial

Moore, Simon

20

Hardraw

Private

20541

Leyburn

Sucrerie Cemetery, Colincamps

Pattison, Thomas Edward

26

Seaham Harbour

Serjeant

17849

Seaham Harbour

Thiepval Memorial

Porter, James

21

Eldon Colliery

Lance Corporal

18235

Sunderland

Thiepval Memorial

Robson, George

28

Guisborough

Private

3/8820

Middlesbrough

Bancourt Cemetery

Rudge, Reginald Theodore

26

Middlesbrough

Second Lieutenant

 

 

Thiepval Memorial

Smith, John

20

Harome

Corporal

10063

Scarborough

London Cemetery and Longueval Memorial

Townsend, James

22

North Ormesby

Private

16016

Middlesbrough

Thiepval Memorial

Ward, Edwin

34

Guisborough

Private

27953

Stockton-on-Tees

Thiepval Memorial

 

It looks like the majority of the casualties body's were lost to the battlefield 

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13 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

It looks like the majority of the casualties body's were lost to the battlefield 

So far I’ve already mentioned that Private 3/8725 A. Bentley and Corporal C 10063 J.Smith were found together in 1936 at Map Reference Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.26

 

And that Private 16610 R.Hill was recovered from the battlefield in 1920/21 along with a number of unknown British Soldiers. He was found at map reference Sheet 57c. N.27.b.5.2.

 

The other three men who died on this day and who now have known graves are:-

 

Corporal 7103 William Harrison was found at Sheet 57c N.34.a.8.9 in 1920.

Private 20541 Simon Moore was found at Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.05 in 1934, He was originally down as an unknown British Soldier, as was the other body found at the same location, but was identified from a ring and a partial serial number on his boots.

Private 3/8820 G.Robson of C Company was found at Sheet 57c N.27.b.3.5, along with an Unknown British Officer, (Arthur Goodall or Reginald Rudge perhaps) in 1920/21.

 

Of course while the CWGC Concentration Report shows there was no marker on the location where any of them were found, there is no way of knowing whether the orginal marker was destroyed or in the case of the men found in the thirties, rotted away.

 

The modern day map provided by @WhiteStarLine shows a tarmac'd road running to the east of the area which doesn't appear to be present on the trench maps. Makes you wonder if any of these men were found during it's construction.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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1 minute ago, PRC said:

So far I’ve already mentioned that Private 3/8725 A. Bentley and Corporal C 10063 J.Smith were found together in 1936 at Map Reference Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.26

 

And that Private 16610 R.Hill was recovered from the battlefield in 1920/21 along with a number of unknown British Soldiers. He was found at map reference Sheet 57c. N.27.b.5.2.

 

The other three men who died on this day and who now have known graves are:-

 

Corporal 7103 William Harrison was found at Sheet 57c N.34.a.8.9 in 1920.

Private 20541 Simon Moore was found at Sheet 57c N.28.d.80.05 in 1934, He was originally down as an unknown British Soldier, as was the other body found at the same location, but was identified from a ring and a partial serial number on his boots.

Private 3/8820 G.Robson of C Company was found at Sheet 57c N.27.b.3.5, along with an Unknown British Officer, (Arthur Goodall or Reginald Rudge perhaps) in 1920/21.

 

Of course while the CWGC Concentration Report shows there was no marker on the location where any of them were found, there is no way of knowing whether the orginal marker was destroyed or in the case of the men found in the thirties, rotted away.

 

The modern day map provided by @WhiteStarLine shows a tarmac'd road running to the east of the area which doesn't appear to be present on the trench maps. Makes you wonder if any of these men were found during it's construction.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Absolutely amazing Peter and everyone who has provided information. Appreciate your help 

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