Jump to content
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Joseph ELDER, Gunner 300705, 4th Highland (Mountain) Brigade, Royal Garrison Artillery (T.F.)


Tom Lang
 Share

Recommended Posts

I am researching this soldier who is named on my local War Memorial.

Joseph is not listed on the CWGC or SNWM websites and I suspect it was because he was discharged as 'no longer fit for service' on 12th May, 1919.

Joseph died on 20th April 1921, age 25, at Shotts Sanatorium, Shotts Lanarkshire, Scotland. 
The cause of death was "Pulmonary Tuberculosis"- Several Months; Haemoptysis:- Sudden". [Haemoptysis is coughing up and spitting blood derived from the lungs or bronchial tubes as a result of pulmonary or bronchial haemorrhage.]

The date of his death is within the CWGC designated dates for WW1 of 4th August, 1914, to 31st August, 1921.

Before I submit his case to the CWGC I have a couple of questions to ask the GWF before I make a(nother) fool of myself.

From ScotlandsPeople: I have his Birth and Death records; I also have the 1901 and 1910 Census records; also the death records of his mother (25th June, 1927) and his father (3rd September, 1929).

From Ancestry: I have his MIC; Medal Roll for the VM and BWM; Medal Roll for SWB showing that he enlisted on 17th November, 1915, and was discharged on 12th May, 1919, age 24, and that he did serve abroad.  

From Fold3: I have:
(1) A Dependant's Pension Card - Case No 1/D/16736.
This shows that his mother Clementina Elder, Fairleigh Lodge, Bothwell, Lanarkshire, was the 'original' dependant. This is amended to show his father Hugh Elder as the claimant (due to the death of Clementina).
(2) A Pension Address Card (1) - with Case No 1/D/16736 (amongst many other references), shows his name, regiment, number and 'Died 20.4.21'.
(3) A Pension Address Card (2) - naming his mother Clementina Elder; ref "1/D/ [blank]".
(4) Pension Ledger Page - Regional No 1/D/16736.
This shows that his mother Clementina Elder, Fairleigh Lodge, Bothwell, Lanarkshire, was the claimant.
(5) Pension Ledger Page - Regional No 2/M E/ No 1265.
Seems to be a cancellation, due to "MAN DEAD", of 1/D/16736.
(6) Pension Ledger Page - Regional No 1/ME 1464.
Shows an address for JOSEPH ELDER as: "Burnside House, Tighnabruaich".
This shows a disability of "Malaria".
[Tighnabruaich is a village on the Cowal peninsula, on the western arm of the Kyles of Bute in Argyll and Bute, Scotland.]

JOSEPH ELDER is buried in the family grave in Larkhall Cemetery, Larkhall, Lanarkshire.
The family headstone shows that JOSEPH died on 20th April 1921, age 25.

I am attaching the 3 Pension Cards and 1 Pension Ledger (the one which mentions "Malaria").

My question(s) is/are:
(1) On the Pension Address Card No 2, his serial number '300705' is shown.
Directly below this number, is another number '2811'.
Fold3 suggests that this number is associated with the King's Own Scottish Borderers, but I cannot find any association.
(2) Pension Ledger Page (6) shows his disability as "Malaria" and gives his address as "Burnside House, Tighnabruaich", which is where he may have spent time recuperating.

Can any of the eagle-eyed gurus of the GWF draw any conclusions, before I submit this case to the CWGC for consideration of commemoration.

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

Elder Joseph - Gnr 300705 RGA - Pension Index Card 1.jpg

Elder Joseph - Gnr 300705 RGA - Pension Index Card 2.jpg

Elder Joseph - Gnr 300705 RGA - Pension Index Card 3.jpg

Elder Joseph - Gnr 300705 RGA - Pension Ledger 3.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin
11 minutes ago, Tom Lang said:

(1) On the Pension Address Card No 2, his serial number '300705' is shown.
Directly below this number, is another number '2811'.
Fold3 suggests that this number is associated with the King's Own Scottish Borderers, but I cannot find any association.

The RGA also used 6 digit numbers that would also fall across the same ranges used by the infantry.

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

The problem you might have is that he appears to have been discharged with malaria (although it is not noted to be aggravated by or attributable to service) and then later dies of TB.

 

You'd need a link between the TB and service. A couple of months suffering the symptoms would still have him showing it after discharge.

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

The pension of 5s 6d under the 1918 Royal Warrant was for a minimum level of disability of 20%. I'd have expected a higher amount if the TB had been apparent upon his discharge.

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin

Just to be clear, his 2811 number was his original RGA (TF) number before he was re-numbered early 1917 to 300705 as per the TF generally.

 

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the KOSB

 

Regards

 

Russ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The problem you might have is that he appears to have been discharged with malaria (although it is not noted to be aggravated by or attributable to service) and then later dies of TB.

 

You'd need a link between the TB and service. A couple of months suffering the symptoms would still have him showing it after discharge.

Craig

Thanks Craig.

I know that malaria shows 'flu-like' symptoms, and the 'Spanish Flu' epidemic was from February 1918 to April 1920.

He was discharged 12th May, 1919, so there could be an 'inference' there, and could the 'malaria' be a mis-diagnosis.

Thanks

Tom.

17 hours ago, RussT said:

Just to be clear, his 2811 number was his original RGA (TF) number before he was re-numbered early 1917 to 300705 as per the TF generally.

 

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the KOSB

 

Regards

 

Russ

Thanks Russ.

I'll get a snippet from Fold3 to show you.

I'm just out of red-herrings and rabbit-holes to make sense of the number 2811.

Tom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, RussT said:

Just to be clear, his 2811 number was his original RGA (TF) number before he was re-numbered early 1917 to 300705 as per the TF generally.

 

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the KOSB

 

Regards

 

Russ

Here's the source of the reference to KOSBs.

I do think that it is an error, but who am I to argue with the WFA.

Tom.

Fold3 Snippet.jpg

Edited by Tom Lang
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Further,

Since he served from 17th November, 1915, and was discharged on 12th May, 1919, I have checked the National Archives for a War Diary.

WO 95/4308 is available on Ancestry (spit) and covers the period Aug 1914 - Dec 1915.

WO 95/4800 is NOT available and covers the period Dec 1915 - Apr 1919.

So I'll have a look on Ancestry (spit) for the time when he was with the 4th RGA in their WD from Nov 1915 - Dec 1915.

Tom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin
2 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

Here's the source of the reference to KOSBs.

I do think that it is an error, but who am I to argue with the WFA.

Tom.

Fold3 Snippet.jpg

 

A problem with the indexing - go with what's on the card.

 

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Tom,

 

300705 falls within the number block allocated to the 4 Highland Mountain Brigade, RGA under the 1917 renumbering (link). The men were probably renumbered sequentially based on their previous (usually 4 digit) number. For instance :

 

2802 Derby - 1/Bute Mountain Battery/ 4 Highland Mountain Brigade attested 18.11.1915, renumbered to 300696. Left Devonport 6.9.1916, arrived in Salonika 20.9.1916

2811/300705 Elder 

2813 McMaster - 1/Bute Mountain Battery/ 4 Highland Mountain Brigade attested 17.11.1915, renumbered to 300707. Left Devonport 6.9.1916, arrived in Salonika 20.9.1916

 

Regards

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin
2 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

Here's the source of the reference to KOSBs.

I do think that it is an error, but who am I to argue with the WFA.

Tom.

Fold3 Snippet.jpg

 

Tom

 

Just to confirm that this mention of KOSB is a consequence of some horrendous mal-indexing by Ancestry/Fold 3, which I have already reported to them and which I commented upon in this post below. Apparently it either can't be corrected or there is a lack of a will to do so, which is a massive shame given the importance of these Pension Cards.

 

FOLD3/Ancestry Indexing of WFA Pension Cards - What's Happening? - Interpreting documents - Great War Forum

 

Chris, above, has given the correct context as to where this 4-digit number originates.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

A problem with the indexing - go with what's on the card.

 

Craig

 

33 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Tom,

 

300705 falls within the number block allocated to the 4 Highland Mountain Brigade, RGA under the 1917 renumbering (link). The men were probably renumbered sequentially based on their previous (usually 4 digit) number. For instance :

 

2802 Derby - 1/Bute Mountain Battery/ 4 Highland Mountain Brigade attested 18.11.1915, renumbered to 300696. Left Devonport 6.9.1916, arrived in Salonika 20.9.1916

2811/300705 Elder 

2813 McMaster - 1/Bute Mountain Battery/ 4 Highland Mountain Brigade attested 17.11.1915, renumbered to 300707. Left Devonport 6.9.1916, arrived in Salonika 20.9.1916

 

Regards

Chris

 

18 minutes ago, RussT said:

 

Tom

 

Just to confirm that this mention of KOSB is a consequence of some horrendous mal-indexing by Ancestry/Fold 3, which I have already reported to them and which I commented upon in this post below. Apparently it either can't be corrected or there is a lack of a will to do so, which is a massive shame given the importance of these Pension Cards.

 

FOLD3/Ancestry Indexing of WFA Pension Cards - What's Happening? - Interpreting documents - Great War Forum

 

Chris, above, has given the correct context as to where this 4-digit number originates.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

Thanks to each of you.

At least I can use the number 2811 with more meaning.

I spent the last couple of hours on Ancestry (spit).

I downloaded the pages from WO 95/4308 - for the period Aug 1914 to Dec 1915 - all 7 (yes seven) pages.

Oh well, can't win them all, but thanks to you guys I will have a more 'rounded' case to submit to the CWGC.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

Edited by Tom Lang
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have transcribed the 7 pages of the 4th RGA WD, and have attached snippets of all 7 for your information ('coz I know you like a good read).
The WD provides a description of their organisation as follows:
The Units of the Brigade mobilized at the following places :-
Bde Hdqrs    Rothesay, Bute
Argyll Battery    Campbelltown, Argyllshire
Ross & Cromarty Battery    Dingwall, Ross-shire
Bute Battery    Rothesay, Bute.

The Brigade made their way to Bedford on 14th August, 1914.
Training and equipping took place at Bedford, and on 16th March, 1915, the Brigade left Bedford for Plymouth Docks.
The Bute Battery remained in the UK at that time.
From 16th to 20th March, 1915, the 4th RGA were at Avonmouth Docks, and embarked for Alexandria, Egypt, arriving there on 1st April, 1915.

The Brigade took part in operations in Gallipoli, and the available parts of the WD end on 26th December, 1915, at Ismalia, Egypt.

The SWB Roll shows that Joseph enlisted on 17th November, 1915, and was discharged on 12th May, 1919 (snippet attached). So the available WD pages are not immediately helpful.
BUT:
(1) If he did later join the Brigade as part of M.E.F. he may have contracted Malaria at that time.
(2) Tighnabruaich is not very far from Rothesay, where the Brigade HQ and Bute Battery was based. After being discharged on 12th May, 1919, he may have decided to recuperate in Tighnabruaich which is not far from his old Brigade HQ.

Since the remainder of the WD is not digitised at this time (WO 95/4800 - Dec 1915 - Apr 1919) it stops me from making any more guesses. 

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

SWB Roll Snippet.jpg

RGA 4th WD p01.jpg

RGA 4th WD p02.jpg

RGA 4th WD p03.jpg

RGA 4th WD p04.jpg

RGA 4th WD p05.jpg

RGA 4th WD p06.jpg

RGA 4th WD p07.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Tom,

 

On the LLT (here) there is a link to a "detailed history" of the 1/1st Bute Battery. It seems to point towards www.butesonsanddaughters.co.uk, but doesn't want to open for me. Perhaps it no longer exists, but maybe someone who is more IT savy than me can find the document.

 

Regards

Chris

Thanks again Chris.

The link doesn't work for me either.

I did a Goggle (yes Goggle) search for "bute sons and daughters" and it looks like the link has been taken over by some business indexing company.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Tom,

 

On the LLT (here) there is a link to a "detailed history" of the 1/1st Bute Battery. It seems to point towards www.butesonsanddaughters.co.uk, but doesn't want to open for me. Perhaps it no longer exists, but maybe someone who is more IT savy than me can find the document.

 

Regards

Chris

Now why didn't I do this before...

I tried Goggle before a search on the Forum and found much of the previous research re 4th RGA was at my fingertips.

Bute Mountain Battery - Soldiers and their units - Great War Forum

A link (like yours) works for about 30 seconds before it closes.

But meanwhile I am busy reading the prior research done by Forum members.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Today I submitted my case to the CWGC for their consideration of their commemoration of Gunner Joseph Elder.

Thanks to all, and I will post any news I receive from the CWGC.

I intend to also submit Joseph's case to the SNWM.

Lt Col (Retd) Colin McGrory, Secretary to the Trustees, at Edinburgh Castle, is always helpful, and a good guy to boot.

Kindest Regards,

Tom Lang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

Today I received this message from the CWGC stating that the "relevant Service Authority" [The National Army Museum] have rejected this case.
The text of the email message is:

"Thank you for your submission of Non-Commemoration Case 11316, 300705 Gunner Joseph Elder. 

We have received an adjudication decision from the relevant Service Authority and been instructed that this individual does not qualify for commemoration as a Commonwealth war casualty, according to CWGC’s eligibility criteria. The case was rejected by the Board based upon the presented evidence, noting there was no indication that the cause of death was linked (contracted during or aggravated by/attributable) to military service.

We appreciate this may make for disappointing news. We nevertheless value your patience and hope that you can understand the need to apply our criteria consistently and in line with the decisions that military authorities came to at the time, to ensure that everyone is treated equally. If you require further clarification, please contact us.

Kind Regards,
[I have deleted the name for privacy reasons]
Commemorations Officer".

It is disappointing that this soldier was discharged due to Malaria; and died 21 months later from ""Pulmonary Tuberculosis"- Several Months; Haemoptysis:- Sudden". [Haemoptysis is coughing up and spitting blood derived from the lungs or bronchial tubes as a result of pulmonary or bronchial haemorrhage.]".

Lest We Forget!

Tom Lang

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 01/04/2021 at 17:20, Tom Lang said:

Today I submitted my case to the CWGC for their consideration of their commemoration of Gunner Joseph Elder.

Thanks to all, and I will post any news I receive from the CWGC.

I intend to also submit Joseph's case to the SNWM.

Lt Col (Retd) Colin McGrory, Secretary to the Trustees, at Edinburgh Castle, is always helpful, and a good guy to boot.

Kindest Regards,

Tom Lang.

This is a link to the Scottish National War Memorial (SNWM) in Edinburgh Castle.

Gunner Joseph Elder is now commemorated with all Scots who have fallen in War.

Scottish National War Memorial | Roll Search | View details (snwm.org)

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tom Lang said:

Today I received this message from the CWGC stating that the "relevant Service Authority" [The National Army Museum] have rejected this case.

That's a blow.  Probably not all that surprised [and as Craig @ss002d6252 posted earlier] - seems rather challenging to make a solid enough case/link for CWGC [I know as I have fought/am fighting a TB case at the moment!]

However ...

1 hour ago, Tom Lang said:

This is a link to the Scottish National War Memorial (SNWM) in Edinburgh Castle.

Gunner Joseph Elder is now commemorated with all Scots who have fallen in War.

Scottish National War Memorial | Roll Search | View details (snwm.org)

Very well done - a really good outcome. :-)

M

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...