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Help with early German casualty


Simon_Fielding
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Could I ask for some help with an early German casualty?
Constantin (or Konstantine) Fischer who was killed in the early phase of the war according to a memoir written by my wife's great grandfather was a member of a Tolstoy-inspired pacifist group who lived a rural existence in Wickford, Essex. John Goring left a memoir which discussed good friends the Fischer / Welti family who were Wickford friends with London banking and mercantile connections. The younger Fischer, Constantin, felt the family should return to Germany, and Goring ruefully reflects that they heard Fischer had been killed in action in the opening months of the war.
 
i can't find Fischer's death in the Ancestry records- but i did find this British probate records which gives a much longer set of forenames, a date of death 30 9 14 and Fricourt on the Somme as place of death. Wickford connection is here but it still seems an awkward fit...
 
Any suggestions? 

Simon

fischer probate.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Simon_Fielding said:

but it still seems an awkward fit...

Perhaps I'm missing something?

Looks like a perfect match to me.

What exactly is causing you concern?

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I'm not 392606563_shcfwedding.jpg.8f50fc59ec8b4d1a1bc13b41d109422c.jpggetting a candidate in the German records - I am being slow though because his wedding registration clearly gives his initials too...doh

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I think I've traced the source of the confusion..

....but not resolved it - Carl, Constantin, or Simon Friedrich?

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I'm beginning to see the problem.

There are (at least) 2 Fischer brothers, Constantin an Simon Heinrich C. who married 2 Welti sisters, (Daisy and Margaret Henrietta E.) in Lewisham in 1904, according to FreeBMD.

The 1911 Census puts Constantin, a 34 year Old Bank Clerk with Daisy in Suffolk, with 7 yrs of marriage under their belts.
Can't find Simon & Margaret.

 

So - who is Carl/Karl, and are the names an details being conflated?

 

 

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4 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Feldwebel - Leutnant Simon Friedrich Fischer

Hi,

I don´t think it´s him, as Feldwebel-Leutnants were longserving, experienced Vize-Feldwebel who got promoted to fill in gaps which could not be filled with Leutenants.

If I understand it correctly the person in question was not a professional soldier with a long service record.

 

Simon,

can you give us his date and place of birth or at least one of the two?

GreyC

Edited by GreyC
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There is too much conflicting information about in the two threads that deal with this query.

1) In the Carl Fischer thread it is stated that Carl Fisher was supposedly with the 6th Bavarian RFAR and died before September 1914. According to the German loss lists there was nobody by the surname Fisher who died in this unit during the time in question. Regardless of first names. No Fischer.

2) In Simon´s first post in this thread he submitted a source stating that "his" Fischer died on the 30th September at Fricourt near Albert in France.

That´s roughly 340km  North-North-West of were the Bavarian Reserve Feldartillerie Regiment No 6 was at that time (30km west of Nancy). So no match there either.

3) According to Dai Constantin Fischer was 34 at the 1911 census, whereas Carl Fischer was 21 at that time, according to a post by DNK in the Carl Fischer thread.

4) According to in the Carl Fischer thread, Mr Goring the neighbour of the Fischers stated that Mr. Fischer was a tall man at 6 ft 2 1/2 inches and had been a Lieutenant in the Kaiser's bodyguard.

If CARL had been a Leutnant in a Prussian Infantry-Garde unit, there is little probability he would have been fighting for a Reserve Field Artillery unit from Bavaria.

5) The neighbour Goring is cited as source for Constantin as well as for Carl. So maybe someone should consult the text and see what it really says, or if both were somehow related and were mentioned and muddled up somehow.

GreyC

 

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The attack on Fricourt, the place where Mr. Fischer supposedly died, was mainly conducted by the 28th Reserve-Divison from Baden on the 29th of September . So chances are, that your man was part of one of those units that made up the Division.

GreyC

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3 hours ago, GreyC said:

There is too much conflicting information about in the two threads that deal with this query.

1) In the Carl Fischer thread it is stated that Carl Fisher was supposedly with the 6th Bavarian RFAR and died before September 1914. According to the German loss lists there was nobody by the surname Fisher who died in this unit during the time in question. Regardless of first names. No Fischer.

2) In Simon´s first post in this thread he submitted a source stating that "his" Fischer died on the 30th September at Fricourt near Albert in France.

That´s roughly 340km  North-North-West of were the Bavarian Reserve Feldartillerie Regiment No 6 was at that time (30km west of Nancy). So no match there either.

3) According to Dai Constantin Fischer was 34 at the 1911 census, whereas Carl Fischer was 21 at that time, according to a post by DNK in the Carl Fischer thread.

4) According to in the Carl Fischer thread, Mr Goring the neighbour of the Fischers stated that Mr. Fischer was a tall man at 6 ft 2 1/2 inches and had been a Lieutenant in the Kaiser's bodyguard.

If CARL had been a Leutnant in a Prussian Infantry-Garde unit, there is little probability he would have been fighting for a Reserve Field Artillery unit from Bavaria.

5) The neighbour Goring is cited as source for Constantin as well as for Carl. So maybe someone should consult the text and see what it really says, or if both were somehow related and were mentioned and muddled up somehow.

GreyC

 

Hello,

Bayerisches Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment 6 wasn't anywhere near the frontline in September 1914. It only left Germany with the rest of the 6. Bayerische Reservedivision mid October 1914...

But I agree that all information is extremely confusing and nothing in the German lists to confirm any of it.

Jan

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As far as I can tell there wasn‘t a Simon, K(C)onstantin or K(C)arl of officer rank killed with the 28. RD infantry or artillery units during 1914. There was only 1 Fischer fatality in the Prussian Officer Corps on 30th Sept and that was in the east.

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Hi,

sorry, shouldn´t do research late at night. Jan is right of course, I accidentally researched the Bavarian FAR 6 instead of RFAR 6. Mea culpa!

But at least we now know he wasn´t with that unit either.

And I agree with Charlie on the KIA officers by that name. There was noone by that name killed in action, officer or not by the names Charlie mentioned in any of the Infantrie-Regimenter of the 28th Res Div as far as I can tell.

GreyC

Edited by GreyC
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No more data I'm afraid but he's the man I think:

AsIMfvITnJYB12-5ORex0sa6-4l68el1IvtajJm72IIS4F-yjMFOq72G-1VW2KMsruVNplNmLdH7MEyXp1Z6LN5IjEEQt8lWMauUd4YRDpO8n4vDue0WlUDAstTilGiVoV_KFW6dBCSg5A4Zm7HITmNZnydYQKSlD7KW4BHQbAB_CDuLOpacj5r8eCfs52tGZwdnx3hFax5wrizHRXLvBPdxsjLUSyl94iUvnwAVoxm9eyvhAItU9gnTWfDxYyPTdC-vEre6yssuG7-uyTENrzrArQcSTA4CXKBc1VpxJbnuBdlA5A418EpcDytKfk7YrN1rBIW6JNY51FNHxXd53uqcwBVh264qXa7sAFFs6hSd2uw_dgpXtNYBa8Gcg470421vnZHfincGGYODeIqG6gXBxvro9KgdAwentMQu1WRMJEiY5NVld18rukFpXTsr0fiWVS_rHVdAFvngI2o64f_eA_Hc9mgRBZTJfJM0Q0hT_D44yXBAqkJZ-SMU4xeTDASyDsnjovjywLekpkT2j-RytZyibEm4rjfHMP1UmFuDEcQWO7u5N9l1dfJe8kcAjvh71vRzP5KasDlzIKNXw_kO-cUKRfT0laHE83ULOtShARGEL_CAsCRcN1tGWrsE2BXsKkpUcubgRmiAQnE1KT0OabZLzMPdEFaAKxL9IOjOCPKFmE0_i-ltgZg0CNpdFKQ4mt_WZwL38AgcdFbbaCpe8A=w1253-h1663-no?authuser=01462305862_DasiyandConstantin.jpg.6d3d9c341b38f5d2e1ce055214ecda8a.jpg

 

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What a fine couple...

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  • 3 months later...

Simon

The answer to your question

The Karl/Carl Fischer commemorated on the Wickford WM is not the person who lived at Home Rest and who has been wrongly added to the memorial. The owner of Home Rest was Constantin Heinrich Simon Fischer, an employee of the Deutsche Bank in London, Constantin is the person who should be commemorated.

All the Newspaper reported was that C Fischer of Home Rest had been killed/died on 30.09.1914 in France, there is no christian name or place of death mentioned. Someone has looked at the German casualty lists and found the only apparent C Fischer who could have died on the 30.09 and put (understandably) 2 & 2 together and got 5 i.e. Ltn.d.R. Karl Fischer KB 7. FAR. There is no connection between Karl Fischer, who according to his service record was single and lived in Munich, and Wickford. We know from the probate records that Constantin died near Fricourt on 30.09. and from the Deutsche Bank records the he was an Offz.Stv.

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2019/verlustliste_deutsche-bank-1914_wk1.html

In the early stages of the war some of the casualties were only recorded by their surname, the entry for Constantin Fischer records him as an Offizier-Stellvertreter ( Experienced NCO‘s were appointed as assistant officers) and only as being wounded

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/614168

It took quite a while to trawl through the casualty lists to find an Offz.Stv Fischer in the 28th Reserve Division who fitted the bill but I found him serving with No.9 Company, Reserve Infanterie Regiment 111. His service record states that he was born on 06.12.1876 in Freiburg, and lived in „London“ with his wife Daisy. He had previously served as a „One year volunteer“ with No. 1 Coy IR 113 in 1897-98.

His service record further records that he was wounded in the shoulder on 29.09 near Fricourt and died of his wounds at the Sanitäts Kompagnie No. 2 of the 2nd Bavarian Army Corps at Bazentin-le-Petit on 30.09 and was buried in mass grave number 13.

Charlie

 

 

4B96905A-16CC-4425-B703-8B929E3E8C9D.jpeg

A45126FE-39A1-4BE5-9010-9C9917B60CDB.jpeg

Edited by charlie2
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