Royal Marines cap badge info

[GazB]

New to this forum so hello everyone.

I'm trying to find out what cap badge my grandad would have worn. He joined the Royal Marines in January 1915. His 1914 - 1915 Star has Deal and RM engraved  on it. But in 1917/1918 he was in the 148th (Royal Naval) Field Ambulance. So would he have worn the same cap badge throughout the war and if so what would it have looked like.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, GazB said:

New to this forum so hello everyone.

I'm trying to find out what cap badge my grandad would have worn. He joined the Royal Marines in January 1915. His 1914 - 1915 Star has Deal and RM engraved  on it. But in 1917/1918 he was in the 148th (Royal Naval) Field Ambulance. So would he have worn the same cap badge throughout the war and if so what would it have looked like.

There’s some information about this at the following two links:

 

1.  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/78317-63rd-royal-naval-division-question-2/

 

2.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rossendalefreepress.co.uk/news/local-news/diaries-found-of-wwi-soldier-8108245.amp
 

The cap badge worn by the Royal Marines of the Royal Marines Medical Units (RMMU) was the plain globe and laurel. The same badge was often also worn in pairs on the collar if sufficient were available (see photos at links).
 

 

Edited 20 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[58 Div Mule]

Royal Marine Medical Unit formed in 1915. Significant numbers of them were miners with St John Ambulance training. 
 

I strongly suspect that these men had first aid and what would now be termed ‘mine rescue’ functions in civil life. I’m guessing they volunteered at the pits at which they worked? Around 500 were recruited initially, it was also felt that their physique would make them suitable as stretcher bearers. Members of the unit won a high proportion of the Military Medals awarded to Royal Marines during WW1.

 

58 DM.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Royal Marine Medical Unit formed in 1915. Significant numbers of them were miners with St John Ambulance training. 
 

I strongly suspect that these men had first aid and what would now be termed ‘mine rescue’ functions in civil life. I’m guessing they volunteered at the pits at which they worked? Around 500 were recruited initially, it was also felt that their physique would make them suitable as stretcher bearers. Members of the unit won a high proportion of the Military Medals awarded to Royal Marines during WW1.

 

58 DM.

 

 

I think that’s all covered also in the first link above.  It might even be you that gave the details.

[58 Div Mule]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that’s all covered also in the first link above.  It might even be you that gave the details.

I joined the Forum in 2018. The last post in the first link was made in 2015.

 

I intend to salute, turn smartly to the right, leave the room and replace my belt and headdress!

 

58 DM.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

I joined the Forum in 2018. The last post in the first link was made in 2015.

 

I intend to salute, turn smartly to the right, leave the room and replace my belt and headdress!

 

58 DM.

Ah yes, it was mostly Graham Stewart and Horatio2.

[GazB]

Thanks FROGSMILE and 58 Div Mule.

 

Just need to find a cap badge with just the plain globe and laurel.

 

His military records are beginning to make a lot more sense now after reading your posts.

 

He was a miner at the start of the war and carried on in the St John Ambulance after being demobbed.

 

His military records say he was at Crystal Palace from 4th January until the 28th February 1915. He was then sent to Blandford until he was on active service from the 26th May 1917 which is about the same time the 1st Field Ambulance became the 148th.

[Pompey]

Gaz,

Your grandad having been awarded the 1914 - 1915 Star points to that he was on active service prior to 27 May 1917 and being at Blandford in Feb/Mar 1915 suggests deployment to Gallipoli with Deal Battalion as named on his Star.

 

[GazB]

Thanks Pompey. It does say active service on his military records but opposite Crystal Palace so couldn't understand why 

ADM-159-209-3166.pdf

[GazB]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s some information about this at the following two links:

 

1.  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/78317-63rd-royal-naval-division-question-2/

 

2.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rossendalefreepress.co.uk/news/local-news/diaries-found-of-wwi-soldier-8108245.amp
 

The cap badge worn by the Royal Marines of the Royal Marines Medical Units (RMMU) was the plain globe and laurel. The same badge was often also worn in pairs on the collar if sufficient were available (see photos at links).
 

 

Does the rear of the cap badge have 2 lugs like the collar badge

[horatio2]

46 minutes ago, GazB said:

26th May 1917 which is about the same time the 1st Field Ambulance became the 148th.

The FAs were re-numbered in May 1916 when the RND arrived in the BEF from the Dardanelles.

29 minutes ago, Pompey said:

Your grandad having been awarded the 1914 - 1915 Star points to that he was on active service prior to 27 May 1917 and being at Blandford in Feb/Mar 1915 suggests deployment to Gallipoli with Deal Battalion as named on his Star.

The record is quite clear = on active service from 1 March 1915 = qualified for Star (while at Blandford). He did not go to Gallipoli. Deal Battalion is not named on his Star. It is part of his RMMU register number  =  Deal/3166(S).

[horatio2]

9 hours ago, GazB said:

It does say active service on his military records but opposite Crystal Palace so couldn't understand why 

He was discharged from Crystal Palace to Active Service at Blandford from 1 March 1915 (reserves for RMMU in the field)

Edited 21 March , 2021 by horatio2

[Pompey]

You are correct Horatio, having looked at his record he never went with the MEF but stayed at Blandford until he went to France.  How usual was that for personnel not to be deployed to make up the huge losses suffered and remain in what was a depot for over 2 years? 

 

I never realised that the 14/15 Star was issued to troops not deployed in a combat zone but a safe home posting counted towards the medal.  I'm sure that would have caused some resentment with those under fire at the time.  You learn something new every day that is one reason I love this forum !

Thanks

[CorporalPunishment]

4 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

I joined the Forum in 2018. The last post in the first link was made in 2015.

 

I intend to salute, turn smartly to the right, leave the room and replace my belt and headdress!

 

58 DM.

A bareheaded salute, surely not!!!. Wake up that man!!.   Pete.

 

[58 Div Mule]

52 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

A bareheaded salute, surely not!!!. Wake up that man!!.   Pete.

 

It’s been a long time Pete 

 

58 DM.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, GazB said:

Does the rear of the cap badge have 2 lugs like the collar badge

I believe so yes.  The cap badge was just a collar badge repurposed during the course of the war.  I’ve never seen one with a slider.

Edited 21 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

7 hours ago, Pompey said:

I never realised that the 14/15 Star was issued to troops not deployed in a combat zone troops not deployed in a combat zone but a safe home posting counted towards the medal.  I'm sure that would have caused some resentment with those under fire at the time.  You learn something new every day that is one reason I love this forum !

Thanks

 

You have to be careful with the terms being used.

If you were a soldier of the British Army, the War Office did not issue the British War Medal to those who served at home as such.

If you were in the Royal Navy, then 28 days mobilised service did entitle you to the BWM. I have come across an ex-Marine (George Thomas Manly) who was a local instructor in British Guyana. He came under War Office rules, and had no medal entitlement for WW1 as a consequence. His MIC documents his non-entitlement.

[Pompey]

Hi Keith,

the only medal that could be awarded on its own was the BWM and as you state the rules for that are riddled with different variations, but I was under the impression that the 14/15 Star was awarded to those who served in a theatre of war outside the UK.  That is why I was surprised about the entitlement for the Star for a Marine sitting in Blandford for all of 1915 hence why I suggested that he had deployed with the MEF, but having since seen his record it states he never left the UK until the end of 1917. However as Horatio said he qualified for the Star while at Blandford as he was listed on Active Service from 1 Mar 1915.  All very confusing and not what I expected

 

 

[horatio2]

Having reviewed a number of RMMU records of that period I must revise my previous assessment, which was in error.

It is now clear that the subject of this topic did deploy to the Dardanelles on 1 March 1915 with the RMMU, remaining there until18 October 1915 and it was this period of service that qualified him for the Star. Please, disregard my comments about Blandford. Apologies for a bad steer.

Edited 21 March , 2021 by horatio2

[horatio2]

The RMMU ledger records in ADM 159 are frequently vague (e.g. they rarely list Field Ambulance drafts).

The best RMMU records are the individual RND Record Cards for men of the RMMU. These contain much more detail. They are in the archive of the Fleet Air Arm Museum [National Museum of the Royal Navy] and nowhere else. The FAAM is Covid-closed to enquiries at present.

[58 Div Mule]

2 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Having reviewed a number of RMMU records of that period I must revise my previous assessment, which was in error.

It is now clear that the subject of this topic did deploy to the Dardanelles on 1 March 1915 with the RMMU, remaining there until18 October 1915 and it was this period of service that qualified him for the Star. Please, disregard my comments about Blandford. Apologies for a bad steer.

In fairness this has had me scratching my head to. I agree that the 1914/15 star would not be awarded for service in the UK. The ADM159 states Blandford throughout 1915/16. 
The only clue seems to be the phrase, that I interpret as Special Service Force 8/2/15, above the home address of Pte Blunt’s wife.

 

58 DM.

[GazB]

22 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

In fairness this has had me scratching my head to. I agree that the 1914/15 star would not be awarded for service in the UK. The ADM159 states Blandford throughout 1915/16. 
The only clue seems to be the phrase, that I interpret as Special Service Force 8/2/15, above the home address of Pte Blunt’s wife.

 

58 DM.

 

30 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Having reviewed a number of RMMU records of that period I must revise my previous assessment, which was in error.

It is now clear that the subject of this topic did deploy to the Dardanelles on 1 March 1915 with the RMMU, remaining there until18 October 1915 and it was this period of service that qualified him for the Star. Please, disregard my comments about Blandford. Apologies for a bad steer.

This is fascinating info. I could make out Special Service but not the last word. So it looks like the active service relates to the line 1st March 15 - 18th October 18. I've always been interested in the history of Gallipoli but never realised a member of my family could have served there. 

[GazB]

Is this the correct badge I'm looking for 

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, GazB said:

Is this the correct badge I'm looking for 

 

Yes it is.  Apparently it was worn by all Royal Marines personnel who supported the fighting elements of the RND, but who were not in the RMA, RMLI, and RM Engineers.  Even the latter initially wore it but with a separate universal grenade badge just above, until such time as a purpose made insignia could be provided.  There seem to have been two types that varied only where the laurel is tied at the bottom. One version had a small, bulbous ball at the join, and the other did not.

Edited 23 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GazB]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it is.  Apparently it was worn by all Royal Marines personnel who supported the fighting elements of the RND, but who were not in the RMA, RMLI, and RM Engineers.  Even the latter initially wore it but with a separate universal grenade badge just above, until such time as a purpose made insignia could be provided.  There seem to have been two types that varied only where the laurel is tied at the bottom. One version had a small, bulbous ball at the join, and the other did not.

 

Glad about that. Asking because it's slightly different from the one you showed earlier in this thread