British and Belgian soldiers?

[Gunner 87]

Guys. Any opinion would be very welcome on the following photograph I have been asked to advise on. 

 

Looking at the man standing he appears to be wearing a British 1902 Pattern Service Dress tunic and puttees which are just visible. I am very confident this is a British soldier though what's throwing me a little is his belt with two prongs. This does not seem to fit with any issued pattern other than the waist belt of a Sam Brown. Has anyone seen this variant before? Was the British tunic worn by any of our allies? 

 

In addition, could anyone identify the nationality and possibly the regiment of the man sitting down? @FROGSMILE

 

Many thanks in advance. 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

It is definitely a type of Sam Browne belt, the upper and lower attachment rings are visible.  There was a basic variant of the Sam Browne belt issued to mounted duty soldiers of some British-Indian Army regiments.  The seated officer appears to be Belgian going by the distinctive collar patches and pointed cuffs.  The Belgian Army started the war in a dark blue uniform but by 1917 had adopted a similar khaki style to the British service dress. 
 

Edited 18 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is definitely a type of Sam Browne belt, the upper and lower attachment rings are visible.  There was a basic variant of the Sam Browne belt issued to mounted duty soldiers of some British-Indian Army regiments.  The seated officer appears to be Belgian going by the distinctive collar patches and pointed cuffs. 

 Thank you Frogsmile. I had no idea OR's wore a variant of the Sam Browne nor did I see the attachment rings...  

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 Thank you Frogsmile. I had no idea OR's wore a variant of the Sam Browne nor did I see the attachment rings...  

I’m glad to help.  The British-Indian Army basic version of the Sam Browne was made in the government leather equipment factory in Kanpur (Cawnpore) in quite large numbers, but it’s not often seen on the Western Front, so it does appear odd on the surface of things.

 

If you look carefully you can see the same, obliquely slanted stripes on the seated man’s cuffs, as appear in one of the colour images I’ve posted above.

Edited 18 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The British-Indian Army basic version of the Sam Browne was made in the government leather equipment factory in Kanpur (Cawnpore) in quite large numbers, but it’s not often seen on the Western Front, so it does appear odd on the surface of things.

 The black armband on the Belgian is interesting. I wonder if they are family members together for a funeral... pure speculation of course! Thanks again for your advice. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 The black armband on the Belgian is interesting. I wonder if they are family members together for a funeral... pure speculation of course! Thanks again for your advice. 

The armband might be a colour other than black and reflect a role in a British headquarters, perhaps as liaison.  The use of such arm bands to indicate function was common.

[Gunner 87]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The armband might be a colour other than black and reflect a role in a British headquarters, perhaps as liaison.  The use of such arm bands to indicate function was common.

 Agreed, he does give the appearance of a liaison / rear echelon officer with what appears to be turn ups... 

[Gabelou]

I think you are right gunner in your speculation concerning the black armband .

It was the simplified  way to wear, during a short period, the " deuil" of a close relative ( parents, brothers...), when in uniform, in France and at last in the Wallonian part of Belgium. For Flandern I am not sure, but probably same, according to christian Catholic  tradition.  The armband was worn on the uniform, on the rear side of the front. This practice was tolerate  by military authorities.

Visible sometime on French groups in bleu horizon.

[Gunner 87]

4 minutes ago, Gabelou said:

I think you are right gunner in your speculation concerning the black armband .

It was the simplified  way to wear, during a short period, the " deuil" of a close relative ( parents, brothers...), when in uniform, in France and at last in the Wallonian part of Belgium. For Flandern I am not sure, but probably same, according to christian Catholic  tradition.  The armband was worn on the uniform, on the rear side of the front. This practice was tolerate  by military authorities.

Visible sometime on French groups in bleu horizon.

 

Thank you Gabelou, I appreciate your response. I actually think they look similar, possibly brothers, which doesn't rule out either theory but may explain why a British and Belgian soldier are in the same studio photograph. 

[FROGSMILE]

Thinking on it further the mourning band was (is still) traditionally worn on the left arm, whereas staff officers brassards were worn on the right arm.

 

NB.  The two diagonal cuff stripes seem to suggest that the seated man is a ‘1st Sergeant’.

 

photo courtesy of the Imperial War Museum.

Edited 19 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Confirmation of a mourning band is provided by this Belgian Army chaplain.

[Gunner 87]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Confirmation of a mourning band is provided by this Belgian Army chaplain.

 

Thank you Frogsmile. I wonder, as suggested to Gabelou, whether the soldiers are related and come together for a family funeral. In addition, with the Belgian Sergeant wearing turn ups as opposed to knee high boots on the outside you may well be right regarding a liaison / HQ Staff role. Great spot regarding the stripes, I thought that was the pattern of the cuff... 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Thank you Frogsmile. I wonder, as suggested to Gabelou, whether the soldiers are related and come together for a family funeral. In addition, with the Belgian Sergeant wearing turn ups as opposed to knee high boots on the outside you may well be right regarding a liaison / HQ Staff role. Great spot regarding the stripes, I thought that was the pattern of the cuff... 

 

The two men do look rather alike.  I did notice from the various images of the Belgian Army that their trousers were worn wide and loose.  I think that the seated sergeant has turned them up a few times to compensate for his lack of boots over which they would normally billow at the top.  The two men do look rather alike and the unusual posture and apparent demeanour of the standing man does make me wonder if he’s actually British, notwithstanding that his uniform definitely is.

Edited 19 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[cmf]

Just to confirm Frogsmile's suspicions, from early 1917 the Belgian Army began to receive supplies of British Service Dress jackets, to supplement their own khaki uniforms. US Army uniforms were also supplied in large numbers. Officially, the British jackets should have been altered as near enough as possible to Belgian regulations, with stand collars (and collar-patches), and piped shoulder straps. However, photographic evidence of the use of British Service Dress jackets in the field overwhelmingly shows unaltered jackets being worn. These jackets continued to be worn by the Belgian Army into the early 1920s, again with or without the regulation alterations.

There appear to be no record of British Service Dress trousers being supplied to Belgian forces.

In the spirit of disregard for regulation, which seemed to be a longstanding trait of the Belgian soldier, all manner of Sam Browne or frame-buckle belts seem to have been borrowed or acquired for 'walking-out' purposes by 'Other Ranks' during WW1.

Chris

[Gunner 87]

On 04/08/2021 at 21:56, cmf said:

Just to confirm Frogsmile's suspicions, from early 1917 the Belgian Army began to receive supplies of British Service Dress jackets, to supplement their own khaki uniforms. US Army uniforms were also supplied in large numbers. Officially, the British jackets should have been altered as near enough as possible to Belgian regulations, with stand collars (and collar-patches), and piped shoulder straps. However, photographic evidence of the use of British Service Dress jackets in the field overwhelmingly shows unaltered jackets being worn. These jackets continued to be worn by the Belgian Army into the early 1920s, again with or without the regulation alterations.

There appear to be no record of British Service Dress trousers being supplied to Belgian forces.

In the spirit of disregard for regulation, which seemed to be a longstanding trait of the Belgian soldier, all manner of Sam Browne or frame-buckle belts seem to have been borrowed or acquired for 'walking-out' purposes by 'Other Ranks' during WW1.

Chris

Chris, my sincere apologies for the delay in responding. I’ve been house selling and buying and took time away from the GWF.

Thank you for that information, not only useful but added a little twist to the way the Belgium officers adorned themselves.

many kind regards

Mat