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12th Royal Scots 51b.H.9.D.9.9. 1/5/1917


Skipman

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I am researching a 12th Royal Scots soldier, 27th Infantry brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division. He was killed in action 1/5/1917 Body originally found GRU Ref 51b.H.9.D.9.9.  (50.311210, 2.848996)  (marked by a cross) his body later reinterred about ½ a mile NW at Point-Du-Jour Military Cemetery, Athies.

 

The battalion moved up at 8.00 p.m., to relieve the 6th KOSB on the 30th of April, 1917, in the Front Line, south-south-east of Gavrelle. The relief complete by 12.45 a.m. Battalion Headquarters established in a dug-out in the Green Line, Helford Trench. Disposition Front Line D & B Companies, Support Line A Company, Helford Trench C Company in Reserve. The 1st of May was spent making firesteps and preparing jumping off positions for the attack on 3rd May.

 

From the 27th Infantry Brigade diary (1) Commencing at 8.30 p.m. 1st the 12th Royal Scots and then the 11th Royal Scots will withdraw from the front trenches, leaving only their Lewis guns to hold the front line. (2) On withdrawal from the front trenches the 11th R Scots and 12th Royal Scots will move to their forming up positions namely Candia trench, and the old Green Line respectively. (3) 6th KOSB will move to their forming up position via Clive Communication Trench and on arrival will take over their battle front i.e., the whole of Wish Trench, the Lewis guns of the 11th R Scots and 12th Royal Scots thus? relieved rejoining their battalions. (4) The 9th SR will move to their forming up positions, namely Cork and Cuba trenches via the infantry track. (5) The guns of the 27th MG Coy will remain in their present positions until the arrival of the 6th KOSB and 9th SR after which they will move to their forming up positions. (6) During the evening of the 2nd May the OC 27th TMB will withdraw his guns from the front line to his assembly position namely the Green Line. (7) Two sections 90th Coy RE will form up with the Support Coys of each of the assaulting battalions (KOSB & SR) (8) The one Coy of the 9th Seaforths (Pioneers) attached to the Brigade will form up in Civil Trench where they should be in position by one hour before Zero. (9) Forming up moves will be completed by 3.00 a.m.

 

I'm trying to find out roughly when he was killed, if possible by the location of his body was found marked by a cross GRU at Ref 51b.H.9.D.9.9.  (50.311210, 2.848996).

 

Using the excellent TMapper website we can see the location in the attached image.

 

I can't find a trench map on the National Library of Scotland Trench Maps that has this location at this time (1/5/1917) Can anyone help with a trench map that contains "Candia Trench" about the 1st of May 1917, or one that contains the "Green Line" "Clive communication Trench" "Wish Trench" "Cork Trench" "Cuba Trench"

 

Is it possible to give a rough time of his death given the location his body was found?

 

Location of "Candia Trench" according to McMaster Maps

 

Candia Trench    Oppy    51bNW2    H 6 b, d, 12 b
Candia Trench    Fampoux    51bNW4    H 6 b, d, 12 b

 

Mike

Forum image 1.JPG

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Hi ya Mike, the followin g extract is taken from the 112th Inf Bde diary and shows the situation at noon on 23rd April 1917. I have illustrated your man's original burial location with a green circle just off the map to the lower left. The red arrows (from L to R) Helford Trench, Candia Trench and Cuba Trench. Chasseaud's 'Rats Alley' lists Clive Trench 51bNW.I.1. Cork Support 51bNW.I.1.a & c. Wish Trench 51bNW.I.1.b & d.2.c. 

I'll have a look when I get home as I may have a later map which sows the latter locations better.

 

J

 

442893424_candiahelfordcuba51bH6dedit.jpg.6389aa074b95dcc85f4323b59921b6a6.jpg

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Many thanks for this Jon. Will have to study but looks like he was buried quite a distance from the forming up position. Was he he killed about that point or carried back there?

 

Mike

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On attached map, "X" marks where the body was found, "Y" the location of Candia Trench. It looks like the northern part of Cadiz Trench is Candia Trench. Not sure of the date of this Ancestry map Click but either Candia was changed to Cadiz, or the other way round. So this 12th Royal Scots soldier was on the evening of 1st May, 1917 (with his battalion) to

 

(1)  at 8.30 p.m. "withdraw from the front trenches" (unless he was with Lewis gunners who were left to hold fron line?) Where was the front line at this time (1/5/1917)?

 

 (2) On withdrawal from the front trenches the 11th R Scots and 12th Royal Scots will move to their forming up positions namely Candia trench, and the old Green Line respectively.  Where was the Green Line?

 

Mike

Forum Question 1a.JPG

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Before I go insane, can someone show me where Obermeyer Trench is in relation to the trenches and lines mentioned above. I have seen it on a trench map but can I find it now. It's in the Arras/Fampoux/Gavrelle area somewhere.

 

Mike

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Chasseaud’s ‘Rats Alley’ lists a Obermayer Graben 51bNW3.G.12. I think that’s somewhere just north east of Arras. 

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36 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Chasseaud’s ‘Rats Alley’ lists a Obermayer Graben 51bNW3.G.12. I think that’s somewhere just north east of Arras. 

 

Thank you Jon, at last I have found it.

 

Mike

Obermeyer Trench.JPG

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On attached image, X is where this soldier's body was found, marked by a cross, (re-interred after war at Y, Point-du-Jour Cemetery) Brigade Headquarters moving to dug-outs at 51b.H.15.a.45.75. [50.3063, 2.8397] just north of Athies.  On the night of the 29th it also took over the front of the 111th Brigade. It was only after this relief that the precise front held was ascertained and the discovery made that Cuthbert Trench had in fact never been taken by the 37th Division.

 

It looks like my soldier was possibly killed on the 29th on his way to Candia Trench and buried about Effie Trench. What do you reckon?

 

Mike

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"It looks like my soldier was possibly killed on the 29th on his way to Candia Trench and buried about Effie Trench. What do you reckon? "

 

Does that make sense, or is it equally possible he was wounded at some point and made it as far as X. SDGW and newspaper reports just say KIA

 

Mike

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