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Edward Ernest Pond Dorset Regiment 3/6038


Garyb

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Hi Gary,

Welcome to GWF.

Is there anything more you wish to tell us about him?

Or any specific question(s) you might like to ask us?

:-) M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
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Hi Matlock1418, thanks for the welcome.

 

I would be interested in his army records, particularly if he had some leave before he went back to battle as there is a story about him coming home to rescue his daughter (my grandmother) from a workhouse  when his wife died......btw, a small correction, Edward was my great grandfather.

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Thought you might be looking for some more - so was already pre-empting you by composing this!

Your story may perhaps have some possible merit - I'm sure will be investigating.

You will be interested to know that there are pension claim record cards at the Western Front Association / Fold3

Show his widow, Elsie May, Clifton Hall, Exeter Road, Bournemouth, b.30.12.1892 [later apparently a Guardian, Mr B Luther, 1 Little Croft Road, Parkstone and for a child Sarah Ann May b. 17.8.1914

An allowance would be made for his daughter until she was 16 [unless she had perhaps gone into/whilst in residential care beforehand] - the claim was thus made "DEAD" in 1930.

:-) M

 

Edit:  

Clifton Hall was a hotel so it is quite possible that EMP was in service there - see for photos 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alwyn_ladell/albums/72157628343433037

 

 

Edited by Matlock1418
added link for Clifton Hall
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Oh wow. That is very interesting, and does seem to support the story. Unfortunately, my grandmother, mother and auntie have all passed away so there are no living relatives who might help.

Was Edward a conscript or was he already in the army before war broke out?

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11 hours ago, Garyb said:

Oh wow. That is very interesting, and does seem to support the story.

Well wife's death and a later guardian are indicated for their daughter.

As for the other stuff we will have to work on it!

At first sight though it seems he likely he probably wasn't early volunteer and he certainly wasn't a conscript.

He has a MIC showing entry into a theatre of war [presumed to be France] 23-10-1914 with the 1st Bn., Dorsetshire Regiment [a Regular unit] and as a Corporal [so looks like he possibly was a pre-war soldier] = so was eligible for a 1914 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal - we can, and will, pursue his military service further.

Watch this space.

:-) M

 

Edit: That said, I correct myself a bit, his number is 3/6038 so looks more like he was 3rd Battalion originally [a Reserve battalion, typically used for training both before and during the war] - perhaps drafted into the 1st at on deployment [the 1st Bn seem to have gone to France, 16-8-1914,  earlier than he did] ... As I said - watch this space for developments.

 

Further edit: Forgot to mention earlier - His MIC [though they got the date of his death wrong on there!] is free to download in b/w from the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4671754 

[or in colour from Ancestry or Fold3 - by subscription, but they occasionally have temp. free full subscriptions - or some very basic free access e.g. for a MIC]

After the war [typically 1919-21] the medals were automatically posted out by Registered Post to next of kin [firstly to a widow or alternatively to a child].

There is no indication on the MIC or the two Medal Rolls used to compile the MIC that they were not delivered/returned as undeliverable.

I also thus forgot to ask this: = Do you have his medals?

If you do please look at the back of the 1914 Star and the rims of the BWM & VM - and let us know what is recorded there please [this might/perhaps have a bearing on our thoughts about his date of enlistment] - possibly post a photo(s)

Also asking whether or not there are any ribbons, attached or loose - particularly looking to see if there is a clasp [a metal bar with 1914 dates on it] and/or possibly a small silver rose [these will tell us if he had perhaps been under fire/within range of enemy guns in the period - the Medal Roll & MIC might/should have told us this but a physical check is another possibility for review - of course now I have typed this I also feel duty bound to check the relevant War Diary, see below].  Unfortunately in some cases medals, especially the silver BWM, were sold in case of hardship at the time - and/or have passed who knows where over later time.

Edited by Matlock1418
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You will have no doubt noted on his CWGC on-line commemoration  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1548693/EDWARD ERNEST POND that he was recorded as being 5th Bn, Dorsetshire Regt. - This is also recorded on the BWM & VM Medal Roll [partly] used to compile his MIC - records he was originally first in theatre with 1st Dorsets and later it seems the 5th Dorsets.

This means we need to look for the relevant War Diaries - not because he will be likely to be mentioned by name - but should give you a bit of background for the start and end of his war.

1st Bn. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352277

5th Bn. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352628

WD are free to download at the moment from the National Archives

His place of physical commemoration is on the Thiepval Memorial - Pier and Face 7 B [this is not because he is in two places but is the general location of the Dorset lads on the memorial - sadly it seems they needed quite a lot of space :-( ]

:-) M

 

Edit: Here is a photo of the Thiepval Memorial panel with EEP's name on it.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12559290/edward-ernest-pond

Edited by Matlock1418
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His "Soldier's Effects" record [again as 5th Dorsets] indicates his widow Elsie M received his back pay etc. £1 15 0 on 3.8.17

and a War Gratuity of £9 on 13/12/19

[a so-called 'Type 1' War Gratuity which was net of Service Gratuity, which is deemed/likely to have been paid previously - others here at GWF are much better than me at using the WG as an indicator of approx. enlistment date - I hope they will soon contribute]

 

His entry in "Soldiers Died in the Great War" additionally records:

Birth Place: Branksome, Dorset

Residence: Upper Parkstone, Dorset

Enlistment Place: Poole, Dorset

 

Edit:  Another question! = Do you have a photo of your GGF?

If not, it is probably worth looking at local newspapers to see if his photo is there - commonly posted on deployment, if on leave, if had sent an interesting letter that his family shared with the press and of course sadly for obituaries.

I don't have access to such resources - but some are on-line and many GWF members do have access and may perhaps voluntarily search/find for you.

Individual [sometimes family group] photos were only privately commissioned - so not to be found in military records.

Of course there perhaps may be military group photos - but the trick is today to to identify the people in them [as most don't seem annotated]

If you have a photo(s) then always welcomed here at GWF ... in hope

[If you have an unidentified photo of a soldier in uniform that you perhaps wonder about - then post it - then we may perhaps be able to identify his unit and perhaps tentatively help further identify - or perhaps rule out instead]

 

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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You may be wondering why I haven't more fully answered the question of EEP/your GGF's military career.

The answer is that I can only approach from the 'outside' and make a few tentative & limited inferences from the few documents that remain - mainly from after his death.

I have not [yet?] been able to find an earlier/fuller Service Record for more detail on his enlistment and career [however, this is not really that surprising as the majority of Army SR were destroyed in storage in London by Luftwaffe bombing and fire during WW2 - the few that remain are, not without reason, known as 'burnt' records as they are often very badly damaged].  I cannot advise if EEF ever got leave from in the UK or from France.

 

And perhaps you are also wondering why I have not more regarding his widow, EMP, and their daughter after his death.  The answer is likewise that the records that available are not in much detail.  Pension files were not kept long-term and many were actively destroyed by the Ministry of Pensions [most in the 1960s and after as many widows started to die more frequently and children had long outlived any allowance entitlement - which usually ended at 16, or 21 under special circumstances].  Only a few pension files were kept as a sample and unfortunately I couldn't see your EEP's amongst them.

 

The limited pension record does not help either with the date of death for his widow, EMP. 

Rather strangely I have so far been unable to more exactly identify when she died or find a death registration under that name in the few years around 1920. 

= Do you have a Death Certificate, or even a year of her death to hand?

 

Although this is not a general genealogical site I did wonder if she had perhaps reverted to her maiden name after her husband's death so looked for marriage records- but could not find her death under either surname.

To do this check this I had to find her maiden surname - I found what appears to be the marriage of EEP, (23), a Labourer [so not a soldier at that date], and Elsie May Paull, (20) [her father: James Larcombe Paull] - St John's Church, Branksome, 26 October 1913 - the particularly interesting address for EEP was Little Croft Road [and for EMP, Gladstone Road - less than a mile away from EEP - both in the Parkstone/Branksome area] especially because Little Croft Road, Parkstone, was the address for the Mr B. Luther who became their daughter's guardian.

The exact nature of this guardianship has eluded me but I think you may perhaps wish to pursue further. 

 

Widows' pensions & children's allowances were not very generous during the war [they got slightly better as the war went on] or afterwards and it certainly seems EMP may have had to go to work, e.g. in Clifton Hall Hotel.  As such she may not have been able to simultaneously care for her young daughter so perhaps she was sent to live with a guardian from a young age.  It was not that uncommon for some part of a family to take on a child's care as an informal way, even before they were fully orphaned - parent, aunts, older siblings etc. commonly did so.  Formal guardianship might have followed as circumstances developed.

 

I do not have the real expertise or access to the necessary records to check institutions such as workhouses and/or children's homes etc. so cannot really comment much, or particularly accurately, on your story of a workhouse rescue during the war. 

However, I would note that: EEP was a soldier - he would normally have sent money home to his wife and family, often by formally allotting part of his pay.  His family would also have received a Separation Allowance whilst he was serving. In order to collect his effects & his War Gratuity and a pension for herself and allowance for their daughter, EMP appeared to been alive after EEP's death = So under the circumstances you described a wartime rescue mission whilst on leave does rather seem unlikely to me. :-/

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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Now back to Edward Ernest Pond's Army life.

So a bit of back-tracking ...

From his Regimental No. 3/6038, I am first interested in/by his time with 3DR

From his Marriage Certificate in October 1913 it seems he was a labourer [and there is not yet any firm evidence of other Territorial Force experience]

3DR were a UK-based Reserve/training battalion.

So time from enlistment into 3DR ??? to theatre of war with 1DR on 23-10-14 seems potentially to have been less than one year.

Could he possibly have been recruited in August 1914 and be in France in October 1914? - it does seem rather short period for training. ???

However the rank on his his MIC & both Medal Rolls shows Corporal - this perhaps suggests he had been in for a while - perhaps from pre-war [??? until they had a bit of active service experience under their belt - unlikely to be promoted before having experience as seemingly with seemingly limited service time before] - Or it could be a mistake from the Medal Roll and an artefact from his later rank [at time of death] ??? = a puzzle.

The answer is that we probably need a more experienced/competent member(s) to consider this matter for you - I think we next need to look for near Regimental numbers who have existing 'burnt' service records to try and 'bracket' his date of enlistment [and/or better see his War Gratuity calculation's approximation]

 

Moving to the matter of EEP's experience in France.

It appears he landed 23-10-14 - he will likely have gone to a camp for later distribution - seemingly to the 1st Bn, Dorsetshire Regt [1DR], who were already in France, as a reinforcement.

Checking the 1DR War Diary it looks like they received 5 Officers and 310 men on 27-10-14 and more on 28th

This would have been a fairly swift distribution for EEF, if he was amongst them, but perhaps was necessary. 

Thereafter 1DR were in action on a number of occasions in Oct/Nov 1914 - so, if he was with them in this period, he would have qualified for a 5 August to 22 Nov 1914 clasp to his 1914 Star - which has to seem quite likely I think.

But, where is the stronger evidence???

 

Sorry, at this stage so much is unknown and only limited speculation seems within my reach at the moment.

Hoping other GWF members can yet come to my/your aid - please!

:-) M

 

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Hi  @Garyb and a belated welcome to the forum :)

 

The 3/ prefix would indicate he was most likely a Special Reservist. These volunteers signed up for a period of 6 years, (Regulars signed up for 12 or longer, Territorials for 4) – but there was a place on the form for a man to say if he wanted to serve less. He would then do a few months basic trainining after which he would be released back into civilian life but with the legally binding commitment that he would serve if the Army was mobilised at any point during the remainder of that 6 year term. In theory there was supposed to be additional training provided to keep a man up to date, but my colleagues on the forum who take a keener interest in the pre-war Army tell me that this was frequently laughable \ downright non-existent.

 

However as a retained Reservist there was a regular payment involved, a useful supplement if your line of work, such, as Labouring, might be uncertain. It also means that there shouldn’t be put too much reliance on his occupation on the 1913 marriage certificate as proof that he wasn’t already a reservist.

 

When the Reserves were mobilised on the 5th August 1914 this of course caused a bit of a problem – the men who turned up the Regimental Depot were at various stages of their training, (and fitness), some having not been in uniform for nearly six years, and so as they were brought up to speed they could be released in drafts to the fighting battalions overseas.

 

Some were no longer fit for service and would be released as unlikely to make an efficient soldier – the Army was still picky at that stage!

 

A quick look at nearby numbers sheds some light on all this.

 

3/6027 Private Cossley Charles Triggle. Subsequently Dorsetshire Regiment 14791 and Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry 20033. Has surviving Service Records. He had his Special Reservist enlistment medical at Dorchester on the 21st September 1909. He was then a 19 year old Carter. He is shown as being mobilised on the 8th August 1914, being posted to the 3rd Battalion on the same day. He was sent out to join the 1st Battalion in France on the 12th September 1914. He was back in England by the 13th December 1914 with a Bullet Wound to the Head. On recovery he was posted out as part of a draft to the Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry in France, but looks like he never actually served with them – he was transferred back to the 1st Dorsets on the 13th May 1915, picking up a new service number along the way. Here is the first page of attestation - the one for Edward Pond would be likely to have been the same.

 

2089127102_AttestationpageCossleyTriggle36027DorsetshireRegimentsourcedFMP.jpg.5d635ec72966c95a9e8035633a8a2df0.jpg

(Image courtesy FindMyPast)

 

3/6029 Private Ernest W.G. F. Belton. No surviving Service Records. Landed in France 20th September 1914. The Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal, (available only on Ancestry), should hopefully confirm which Battalion(s) he served with, although the quality of information on these varies enormously. He would go on to be Private 31235 Royal Irish Fusiliers. FindMyPast has a record for him being admitted to the 51st Field Ambulance on the 29th February 1916 with Influenza. He was then serving with “A” Company, 6th Dorsets. There is another admission to the 51st Field Ambulance on the 13th April 1917 with a Gun Shot Wound Left Forearm. He was then serving with the 5th Dorsets. He was discharged as a result of wounds on the 6th March 1919. Because the hostilities had not yet formally ceased with the signing of a Peace Treaty, he was also entitled to the Silver War Badge. For your perspective this should be good news – the accompanying administrative Control document, the Silver War Badge Roll, shows as standard the date of enlistment. Unfortunately I only have access to a transcription on FindMyPast, which shows his enlistment date as “11-Oct-1918”. Someone with access to the original document on Ancestry will be able to confirm what it should say.

 

3/6034 Lance Corporal Frederick Charles Holt. No surviving Service Records. Landed in France 12th September 1914, served with the 1st Battalion, was Killed in Action 13th October 1914.

 

3/6048 Private Frederick Cave. No surviving Service Records. Landed in France 12th September 1914, served with the 1st Battalion, was taken Prisoner of War, (date and unit not known, no obvious International Committee of the Red Cross record).

 

3/6050 Private William White. No surviving Service Records. Landed in France 12th September 1914, served with the 1st Battalion, was taken Prisoner of War – most likely 7th May 1916, but the ICRC record card doesn’t show Battalion, (only D Company), doesn’t give a service number, and the originating source they quote (their reference P.A. 33136), is for someone else completely different!  However they do have a repatriation record for a “Lance Corporal” 6050 W. White 1st Dorsets, but these reports don’t show when a man was captured.

 

3/6054 Private Robert W. Kelley. No surviving Service Records. Landed in France 12th September 1914, served with the 1st Battalion, was taken Prisoner of War and is probably the Private Robert Kelley, Dorset Regiment, who turns up on the report received by the International Committee of the Red Cross from the Germans on the 16th December 1914. (Reference PA.705). He was captured at “Le Bassey”. Following his return to the UK he too was discharged early, and so qualified for the Silver War Badge. Unfortunately I can see a Silver War Badge Roll entry transcribed for him.

 

A wider search may turn up more records, but if a Forum pal could look up the SWB Roll entries on Ancestry for:-

31235 Royal Irish Fusiliers Ernest Belton and

3/6054 Dorsetshire Regiment Robert W. Kelley

their dates of enlistment should bracket Edward Pond.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

dates of enlistment should bracket Edward Pond.

Peter,

Your help is really appreciated - the OP will be pleased I think.

I did wonder about Special Reservist with 3 DR as a possibility [and hence his swiftness to France] but in the absence of evidence then I didn't pursue above [though thought a 'bracket' might help] - as you say he could have already been signed up at the time of his marriage [and yet anyway, I couldn't have explained the SR to the OP as well as you did!].

As for those SWB:

31235 Royal Irish Fusiliers Ernest Belton - a SWB wash-out [it records as above as enlisted 11-10-18 to 6-3-19]

... but from his BWM & VM Medal Roll 6029 Private Ernest Walter George Frederick Belton was 1 DR in France

3/6054 Dorsetshire Regiment Robert William Kelley - SWB records 17-11-09 enlistment - this looks more promising and so it quite probably puts EEP enlisting in the period shortly before [especially when you also look at 6027 Triggle enlisting 21-9-09, mobilised 8-8-14  ]

Now for EEP = Sept. - Nov. 1909 enlistment it would seem - and likely mobilisation to 3DR, 8-8-14  [certainly this would explain his swift routing to France]

A few days to get fully kitted up, get paperwork sorted and a bit more training and then off to France 23-10-14 as a reinforcement/replacement in 1DR it appears.

:-) M

 

Edit;

Paperwork reminded me ... But couldn't find a soldier's will for him - quite probably in his Pay Book and likely lost with him.

Edited by Matlock1418
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As a hopefully useful aside: Triggle and Kelley together went to France 12-9-14. 

1DR WD has action in the relevant period.  And Triggle is wounded - yet only Kelley has a Clasp & Roses on his MIC, issued in 1920 [OK you don't have get wounded to have a C & R]

But makes you wonder about the accuracy of the MICs and the absence of a 1914 C & R from EEP's.

I think we also have to remember that C & R had to be claimed, I think, and it seems quite likely that EMP perhaps did not / could not claim nor their young daughter do so either.

My feeling is that EEP could probably have been entitled for being under fire.  Just a thought.  Others here may confirm or perhaps have a different opinion.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
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M.,

 

While his service medals would have gone out to his last known next of kin automatically, (unless a soldiers will \ civil probate appointed a different legatee), the clasp and roses had to be applied for. It seems a not insignificant number were not - or at least weren't until the British Legion seems to have organised a push during the thirties, ( I believe I've read elsewhere on the forum there was a cut-off date for application, but don't quote me on that!).

 

So if there was no-one who wanted to apply for them, inckuding the soldier himself, there would be no entry on the MiC. Doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying entitlement to them.

 

Gary,

 

Soldiers didn't routinely transfer between Battalions or Regiments\Corps - it only happened if it suited the Army. The most likely scenario for Edward, (and some of the others named above), was that they were wounded \ accidentally injured \ suffered ill-heath, and it was serious enough for them to be medically evacuated back as far as the coast, and even possibly the UK. The further back in the medical evacuation chain a man went, the less likely it was that he would have been returned to his original unit - even more as the war went on.

 

For those where the chain ended at the coast, after the initial treatment at a Hospital they would go to a Convalescent Depot to recover, and on being found fit they would be sent to an Infantry Base Depot. There were a number of these - in the first couple of years of the war they were associated with Divisions, later on with a number of Regiments. Once there a man could be posted wherever the need was greatest.

 

For those where UK treatment was appropriate, then they would go through a cycle of Hospital, Auxilliary Hospital \ Convalescent Camp and on being found fit they would be given two weeks leave and told to report to their Regiment Depot. From there they would be posted to one of the Home Service Battalions for assessment as to fitness for frontline \ overseas service and any refresher military and physical training. If appropriate they would then form part of a draft for an overseas battalion of the Regiment. If times were quiet they could pass quickly through the Infantry Base Depot after arrival in France and end up with their intended unit. However there was always the potential these drafts could be redirected elsewhere, or broken up and sent in "penny packets" to make good operational losses. A variation on this is when a recovered man hit the depot at the time when another Battalion was getting ready to go overseas and there was an attempt to add some combat experience to the ranks. From the unit I'm more familar with, the Norfolk Regiment, these seems to have happened with Regulars and Reservists who had been over in France and who on recovery where posted into the Kitchener Battalions that would start going overseas from May 1915 onwards.

 

So for Edward Pond to have gone from the 1st Battalion to the 5th Battalion most likely means he'd been through at least one of these scenarios. Unfortunately the official casualty lists for your purposes only covers combat wounds. If he was accidentally injured or had health issues then it's either a question of him turning up in the 5% of admissions & discharges books for medical facilities that were preserved, (as far as I can see he doesn't), or if he gets a mention in the local papers.

 

22 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

child Sarah Ann May b. 17.8.1914

 

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Now for EEP = Sept. - Nov. 1909 enlistment it would seem - and likely mobilisation to 3DR, 8-8-14  [certainly this would explain his swift routing to France]

A few days to get fully kitted up, get paperwork sorted and a bit more training and then off to France 23-10-14 as a reinforcement/replacement in 1DR it appears.

 

22 hours ago, Garyb said:

I would be interested in his army records, particularly if he had some leave before he went back to battle as there is a story about him coming home to rescue his daughter (my grandmother) from a workhouse  when his wife died

Speculation here folks - but from those dates he might well have been released from the Army to sort out a domestic situation or even given some pre-embarkation leave if it was birth issue. And while many women gave birth at home assisted by female relatives and friends, if there were complications, then in a pre-NHS world, the only option for most was the workhouse infirmary. So did she die, or come close to dieing giving birth - given her presense on the post-war pension records the latter scenario seems more of a possibilty.

 

The birth of a Sarah A.M. Pond, mothers' maiden name Saull, was registered with the civil authorities in the Poole Civil Registration District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1914.  As far as the civil records for England and Wales are concerned there is no death for an Elsie M Pond between 1898 and 1936.

 

22 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

later apparently a Guardian, Mr B Luther, 1 Little Croft Road, Parkstone

 

I couldn't find a male Luther living at this address on the 1911 Census of England & Wales and only 1 B. Luther with a connection to Parkstone in that source. This was the the 42 year old married Bessie Luther, born Parkstone, Dorset, and living with her husband of 7 years at "Sans Pareil", New Croft Road, Upper Parkstone. Her husband is James Luther, aged 40, and a Gas Works Labourer, born Newtown, Dorset. So far the couple have had no children. Completing the household is a lodger who happens to be a certain 21 year old Edward Pond, an out of work General Labourer, born Bournemouth, Hampshire. Is that just a co-incidence - on the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is an 11 year old Eddie E Pond, living at Branksome, Dorset, but he is shown as born Bournemouth. No relationship is given to the householders - the relevant space is blank. They are an older couple, David, (58) and Sarah A. Brake, (61)

 

And checking out the Luther's, the marriage of a James Luther to a Bessie Brake was recorded in the Poole District in Q3 1903.

 

For completeness I couldn't find Edward Pond or David, Sarah and Bessie Brake on earlier censuses.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

Edited by PRC
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Wow.....so much reading and information to take in.

Let me read and make sense of all this info and then I'll talk to my brother to see if he can add anything else.

 

A massive thanks to you all.

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Peter - thanks again for another splendidly comprehensive reply

3 hours ago, PRC said:

While his service medals would have gone out to his last known next of kin automatically, (unless a soldiers will \ civil probate appointed a different legatee), the clasp and roses had to be applied for. It seems a not insignificant number were not - or at least weren't until the British Legion seems to have organised a push during the thirties, ( I believe I've read elsewhere on the forum there was a cut-off date for application, but don't quote me on that!).

 

So if there was no-one who wanted to apply for them, inckuding the soldier himself, there would be no entry on the MiC. Doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying entitlement to them.

We agree.

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

Speculation here folks - but from those dates he might well have been released from the Army to sort out a domestic situation or even given some pre-embarkation leave if it was birth. And while many women gave birth at home assisted by female relatives and friends, if there were complications, then in a pre-NHS world, the only option for most was the workhouse infirmary. So did she die, or come close to dieing giving birth - given her presense on the post-war pension records the latter scenario seems more of a possibilty.

This certainly does seem like a potential scenario [I hadn't connected the birth date before] - would also perhaps explain why EEP did not go out to France with Triggle and Kelley 12-9-14. 

That's the thing with family stories - often a lot of truth, but frequently well mangled over time.  Looking more plausible in my opinion

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

The birth of a Sarah A.M. Pond, mothers' maiden name Saull, was registered with the civil authorities in the Poole Civil Registration District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1914. 

Marriage register gives Elsie May Paull and GRO also use Paull.

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

As far as the civil records for England and Wales are concerned there is no death for an Elsie M Pond between 1898 and 1936.

I couldn't find EMP either and the 1936 death one is too young 36 [i.e, born 1900] and born & died in Essex.  Think I found another but older and in Llandudno.

Had she perhaps upped sticks having left her child in the care of perhaps a childless couple?  We can't tell for sure.

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

I couldn't find a male Luther living at this address on the 1911 Census of England & Wales and only 1 B. Luther with a connection to Parkstone in that source. This was the the 42 year old married Bessie Luther, born Parkstone, Dorset, and living with her husband of 7 years at "Sans Pareil", New Croft Road, Upper Parkstone. Her husband is James Luther, aged 40, and a Gas Works Labourer, born Newtown, Dorset. So far the couple have had no children. Completing the household is a lodger who happens to be a certain 21 year old Edward Pond, an out of work General Labourer, born Bournemouth, Hampshire.

Nice work.  The writing on the pension cards does not have a Mrs Luther, certainly it is Mr without the s - but pensions cards are most certainly not infallible and Mrs Luther would probably more likely if there was not a Mr Luther as a formal guardian of an institution, such as a children's home [which appears likely he was not].

Parkstone and Branksome are all in Poole - but could birth registrations perhaps have been alternatively done in Bournemouth, less than four miles away?

Was there a strict obligation to do it in Poole, presumably the nearest?  I'm not sure there was. ???

 

One thing I have not previously mentioned was that the pension ledger record had "N/N" on it.  This we understand to be shorthand for "Noted for Novel" [or special] treatment.

That certainly might perhaps be the case if young SAMP was to end up in the guardianship of the Luthers.

 

It appears a story could perhaps be made to hang together here.

:-) M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
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19 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Marriage register gives Elsie May Paull and GRO also use Paull.

 

The curse for me of having to use some one elses transcription without being able to see the original document  - not helped by having a blindspot when it comes to getting the GRO website to work :)

 

19 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I couldn't find EMP either and the 1936 death one is too young 36 [i.e, born 1900] and born & died in Essex.  Think I found another but older and in Llandudno.

Had she perhaps upped sticks having left her child in the care of perhaps a childless couple?  We can't tell for sure.

 

Strangely enough, (at least for me!), the nearest match for a woman born 30.12.1892 is a 47 year old Elsie M. Pond who died in the Norwich District of Norfolk in Q4 1938, (although still out by 1 to 2 years depending on when she died). However it's a non-starter - the 1938 Probate Calendar has an Elsie May Pond, spinster, who died on the 23rd October 1938 and who lived at 255 Dereham Road, Norwich.

 

Just in case I tried looking for Bessie Luther on the 1939 Register, just in case Elsie was living with her under another name. The GRO Register of deaths for England & Wales doesn't show her dieing, in the Poole District, until Q1 1947. She is to be found as the 5th person in the household at 136 Ringwood Road, Poole, and is shown as a widowed Laundress, living with a married couple, the Russell's and their children but nothing to tie them to Elsie May or her child Sarah.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
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10 minutes ago, PRC said:

he curse for me of having to use some one elses transcription without being able to see the original document

Have been there!

 

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Strangely enough, (at least for me!), the nearest match for a woman born 30.12.1892 is a 47 year old Elsie M. Pond who died in the Norwich District of Norfolk in Q4 1938, (although still out by 1 to 2 years depending on when she died). However it's a non-starter - the 1938 Probate Calendar has an Elsie May Pond, spinster, who died on the 23rd October 1938 and who lived at 255 Dereham Road, Norwich.

Yep, saw her too but put off by a spinster with what looked like a brother iirc, probate and Norfolk - nothing personal! ;-0 lovely county - had quite a few splendid holidays there!! :-)

 

Think we have pulled a lot together.

Now over to OP & his family. to line it up - and perhaps add a few more gems.

:-) M

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