Major Roland James Milleville Raven-Hart; a Doctor/Surgeon, Engineering, Special Operations?

[George Rayner]

Thanks Matlock-think that all makes sense! I sometimes have to draw pictures to help myself out.

 

I don't think we have his initial commission as 2nd Lieutenant do we? Or have I missed it? The earliest appears to be Lt...

 

It's been suggested elsewhere that he may have been 2nd Lt in TF but they weren't gazetted.

 

Thanks

George

[Matlock1418]

On 16/03/2021 at 07:11, George Rayner said:

University of London OTC war service book

George - In your first post you have cited the University of London OTC War Service Book - I have absolutely no idea what this reflects ???

 

3 hours ago, George Rayner said:

I don't think we have his initial commission as 2nd Lieutenant do we? Or have I missed it? The earliest appears to be Lt...

It's been suggested elsewhere that he may have been 2nd Lt in TF but they weren't gazetted.

The then usual practice was that Army commissions to 2 Lt were gazetted using full name, i.e. full forenames and surname [as still is the case nowadays].

Promotions etc. were gazetted under only initials and forename [ditto]

The Army, LG and MIC etc. did tend to 'struggle' with hyphenated surnames - commonly only using the last part and separating or initialising the first part.

Territorial Force commissions and appointments were gazetted I believe [but I am not an expert on this!]

 

Not sure we have seen evidence that RJM R-H was TF - just that perhaps he liked drinking with them.

 

Making various searches from 1900 the earliest LG for R-H appears to be 24 Nov. 1914 [link previously provided]

This LG is unusual in that it uses a mix of forename & initials as well as his surname [which they have actually hyphenated] and in that it goes straight to the rank of Lt - which does rather puzzle both you and me.

 

In the haste to mobilise a larger army I believe university undergraduates with OTC experience were commissioned to the rank of 2 Lt = This makes me wonder if, because of likely OTC experience [He doesn't seem to have come straight from an OTC], at his slightly older age (c.25 according to sources above) and because he had likely/seemingly 'commanded' in the Boy Scouts, R-H might have been granted/given/commissioned in the higher rank of Lt as an expediency. 

 

Just wondering ...

???

= Now we need an expert to come along!

:-) M

Edited 23 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
correction

[Matlock1418]

On 17/03/2021 at 16:17, George Rayner said:

Reverend WJ Raven-Hart was in 6th Battalion Suffolk Regiment during WW1 but whether he had involvement before the conflict I have not managed to discover.

George, Just to clarify the initials [identity] of whom you are writing please  ???

On 17/03/2021 at 16:17, George Rayner said:

I have found a reference that RJM Raven-Hart was in forces from 1911 and I have asked for references to check that out.

Certainly would be of interest.

b.t.w. OTC were not TF - and had no so such legal liability or service obligation nor were required to take the oath of allegiance so seem unlikely to qualify as being "in the forces"

???

:-) M

Edited 23 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[PRC]

On 22/03/2021 at 07:36, George Rayner said:

Why does he have different numbers ascribed to him?

9th Oct. 1939: — Maj. Roland James Milleville RAVEN-HART (106255)

Sgts. 1268625 Roland James Milleville Raven HART (142084)

 

My take on this, or to rephrase @Matlock1418‘ s post slightly, is to look at the terms & conditions of the contract of employment, (because that is what it is), under which he was serving.

 

He starts World War 2 as an Army Major, serving under Army officer terms and conditions and with a service number that reflects that. He resigns his commission and that number dies.

 

He then joins the RAF as a Sergeant, both a different employer and under the terms and conditions of an enlisted man in that organisation. He has a service number drawn from the pool that reflects that. He terminates that contract of employment by agreement to take up a commission the same day. His existing service number dies.

 

Accepting a commission in the RAF, he is now serving under an Officers terms and conditions and is issued with a new service number that reflects that.

 

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

I don't think we have his initial commission as 2nd Lieutenant do we? Or have I missed it? The earliest appears to be Lt...

It's been suggested elsewhere that he may have been 2nd Lt in TF but they weren't gazetted.

 

Militia commissions didn’t use to be gazetted as they were originally awarded by the Lord-Lieutenant of the County, not the sovereign, but following one of the army refoms before 1908, for officers serving with Volunteer Battalions I believe they do start turning up in the London Gazette. Realistically in my opinion, timewise you can only really be looking at Roland joining the Territorial Force. He does not, for example, appear on the lists of officers who effectively transferred from the Norfolk Regiment Volunteer Battalions to its’ TF Battalions. I suspect a similar exercise for the Suffolk Regiment will also draw a blank.

 

There is nothing in his 1915 London Gazette entry to suggest he was then currently serving, nor does it reference him being either a current or past member of the Officer Training Corps – we only have the University of Londons’ own publications as a source for that.

 

And harking back to the contract of employment point, there is nothing to indicate he gave up an open-ended commission in the Territorial Force for a short-service Regular Army commission. The option was there for the Regular Army to take him in at a higher rank – possibly reflective of the skills he was bringing to the Army. I’m more used to seeing it happen in support arms like Engineering and Medical but it could happen with Infantry Battalions.

 

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

George - In your first post you have cited the University of London OTC War Service Book - I have absolutely no idea what this reflects ???

 

I’ve provided a link to that previously although it’s also on archive.org. and the relevant page and an extract have also been posted. It just gives the briefest of details on those that had been members of the OTC who went on to serve in the Armed forces during the Great War period.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

He starts World War 2 as an Army Major,

We don't often differ.

I personally don't read it that way.

My interpretation is as a 2 Lt in 1939 - he may perhaps have had a majority at the end of the GW, and perhaps uses that rank in a retained / honorary way, but to me it seems he starts WW2 as a 2 Lt [probably reflecting the fact that he had probably not done any soldiering since the GW] - and later resigns that commission as a 2 Lt in 1940.

Then somehow he becomes a Sergeant by 1943

To me the rank of Major was long past.

:-) M

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

We don't often differ.

I personally don't read it that way.

My interpretation is as a 2 Lt in 1939 - he may perhaps have had a majority at the end of the GW, and perhaps uses that rank in a retained / honorary way, but to me it seems he starts WW2 as a 2 Lt [probably reflecting the fact that he had probably not done any soldiering since the GW] - and later resigns that commission as a 2 Lt in 1940.

Then somehow he becomes a Sergeant by 1943

To me the rank of Major was long past.

 

Nothing to differ on - entirely my error

I was taking Georges' statement at face value and had lost track of the fact that it had been established that in WW2 he was initially a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army.

 

One small caveat with regard to your last sentence. It is very likely that when he originally relinquished his Great War era Regular Army commission, the wording in the gazette included that he retained the right to use the title Major. Hence why the London Gazette entry for his 1939 entry refers to him as a Major who would serve as a 2\Lt.

 

I'm not au fait with how these things work, but I suspect when he relinquished his commission in 1940 he didn't lose that underlying right -  and if he did I also suspect he wasn't above blurring the lines anyway! So while he was a civilian he probably could call himself Major, only when he was serving could he not assume that rank and was probably not allowed to use it as a title in preference to Mister when out of uniform.

 

As to Sergeant in the RAF, he would still have been of an age where he was liable for National Service during WW2, and as the Army was possibly closed off to him, that only left a choice of two.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

he may perhaps have had a majority at the end of the GW, and perhaps uses that rank in a retained / honorary way,

 

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

[probably reflecting the fact that he had probably not done any soldiering since the GW]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

One small caveat with regard to your last sentence. It is very likely that when he originally relinquished his Great War era Regular Army commission, the wording in the gazette included that he retained the right to use the title Major. Hence why the London Gazette entry for his 1939 entry refers to him as a Major who would serve as a 2\Lt.

We agree - and he quite probably did use 'Major', would certainly seem pretty likely to be his style - though I have not [yet?] found his previous 'relinquishing LG'

I think the currency of the military rank was long gone so far as the Army was concerned even if the LG used it when he became a 2 Lt in 1939.

Seems rather bizarre doesn't it?! 

I've never come across it before, but understood the likely protocol.

But how after WW2?

:-/

34 minutes ago, PRC said:

As to Sergeant in the RAF, he would still have been of an age where he was liable for National Service during WW2, and as the Army was possibly closed off to him, that only left a choice of two.

Yes, but how did he get to Sergeant? - another 'uplift' granted??

Discharge date not possible from LG.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

George,

Sort of thinking you might have seen this and be following, and trying to untangle the Raven-Harts, but ... ???

https://www.1stfressingfieldscouts.org.uk/history

History of 1st Fressingfield Scouts

No mention of any trouble in 1940.

:-) M

[George Rayner]

21 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

In your first post you have cited the University of London OTC War Service Book - I have absolutely no idea what this reflects ???

Two things- firstly that he was an officer, involved in WW1 and survived and secondly that he was a member of University of London OTC therefore was a student at that establishment and so his whereabouts should be easy to ascribe while he was at the University-if he can be found in any other document which links RJM and Uni of London between 1910 and 1914.

1910 chosen as we can't find him in 1911 census!

 

George

[George Rayner]

20 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

On 17/03/2021 at 16:17, George Rayner said:

Reverend WJ Raven-Hart was in 6th Battalion Suffolk Regiment during WW1 but whether he had involvement before the conflict I have not managed to discover.

George, Just to clarify the initials [identity] of whom you are writing please  ???

This refers to Reverend Canon William James Raven-Hart who was the father of the 'person of interest' Roland James Milleville Raven-Hart [Major, etc...]

 

George

[George Rayner]

15 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sort of thinking you might have seen this and be following, and trying to untangle the Raven-Harts, but ... ???

https://www.1stfressingfieldscouts.org.uk/history

History of 1st Fressingfield Scouts

No mention of any trouble in 1940

Yes-that's where it is emanating from! My brother asked for help!

They made a choice abut the use of 'photos' case!!!

George

[George Rayner]

Thanks to everybody for the help and enlightenment. He is such a complex character that this may be as far as we can uncover his story.

 

I would like to know

If he was a University student where it was (I have seen London, Paris and Berlin mentioned) and when?

Where was he in 1901 and 1911 Census Period?

And finally his actual WW1 service if it is confirmed that he worked for the French and was awarded Croix de Guerre. (will check the link for that one)

 

Thanks again

 

George

[George Rayner]

On 16/03/2021 at 08:23, Matlock1418 said:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28986/supplement/9973

10th Battalion, The Suffolk Regiment, Roland J. M. Raven-Hart to be temporary Lieutenant. Dated 26th October, 1914.

A return to the topic....

 

I have just found an immigration notice on Ancestry which says that he returned to Liverpool from La Plata onboard 'Demerera' with a role of Clerk on 6th October 1914.

This is quite amazing that from a traveller on 6th he became a Temp Lieutenant posted to Felixstowe on 26th. Incredible....there is more to this man than meets the eye. 

He also wrote a piece about communications in the German Army and praised Esperanto in another around this time.

Name:	Roland Raven Hart
Arrival Age:	26
Birth Date:	abt 1888
Port of Departure:	Buenos Aires, Argentina
Arrival Date:	6 Oct 1914
Port of Arrival:	Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage:	La Plata; Rio de Janeiro; Lisbon; Vigo
Ship Name:	Demerara
Shipping Line:	Royal Mail Steam Packet Company Ancestry.co.uk - UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960

 

Any thoughts?

 

George

[Allan1892]

Certainly a man of mystery. He arrived back in the UK in 1914 but there is no sign of him on passenger lists leaving the UK - did he go by canoe? (only joking)

[George Rayner]

He may well have done. I wouldn't put anything past him!

 

I think it was 1911 he left for Argentina

 

George