Major Roland James Milleville Raven-Hart; a Doctor/Surgeon, Engineering, Special Operations?

[George Rayner]

I am trying to find out about this man as he 'may' have started a Scout Group local to me in Fressingfield Suffolk in 1908.

 

What I know

born Ireland 1889 father Reverend Canon William Roland(Rowland) Raven or Raven Hart or Raven-Hart or Ravenhart! Mother Edith Fairbrother

No census for 1891, 1901, 1911

At grandfather's funeral in 1906 in Fressingfield-also a Revd 

University of London OTC war service book

Suffolk Regiment-France?, Egypt?

 

Anything to pin him down please between 1914-1919 or evidence of his places of residence prior to the period.

 

And yes he is the author of several books on Canoeing!

 

Thanks everybody

George

[Matlock1418]

You should be able to follow:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28986/supplement/9973

10th Battalion, The Suffolk Regiment, Roland J. M. Raven-Hart to be temporary Lieutenant. Dated 26th October, 1914.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29054/supplement/992

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29825/supplement/11116

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30506/supplement/1593

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30796/supplement/8295

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31138/page/1157

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31371/supplement/6925

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31383/supplement/7183

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32092/supplement/10169

London Gazette, 3rd June, 1919. Page 6925.—For Raven-Hart, T./Capt. (A./ Maj.) James Milleville, Gen. List, read Raven-Hart, T./Capt. (A./Maj.) Roland James Milleville, Gen. List, attd. R.E.

 

He has a 1939 listing too.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34743/supplement/8025

:-) M

Edited 16 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
added links

[Allan1892]

The newspaper The Diss Express published on the 28 November 1919 reported on the funeral of Canon William Roland Raven-Hart. The report mentions that 'he was deeply interested in the Boy Scout movement. The report went on to say that he leaves a son, Captain R Raven-Hart who is serving in Palestine.

 

The report can be found via this link:

 

The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk

[Allan1892]

The 1911 Census records Canon William Roland Raven-Hart living at Fressingfield, Suffolk - no mention of his son.

[Allan1892]

The 1901 Census records Canon William R Ravenhart living in the village of Snaith, Yorkshire - no mention of his son.

[Allan1892]

His Medal Index Card records that his 'First Theatre of War' was Egypt 1 January 1918

 

His service record is available at the National Archives.

[BarbaraG]

Assorted references

 

His parents married in Blackheath in 1889

Family appear to be in Ireland to 1892 when Roland 2yrs old. Would Roland have been at school in 1901 (12yrs)?

London OTC.

Reference on Pension Records. 

 

http://brookspeters.blogspot.com/2012/06/cruising-with-major.html

 

Edited 17 March , 2021 by BarbaraG

[PRC]

His birth was registered in the Millford District of Ireland in the October to December 1889 quarter, so he would have been 18/19 when the Scout Group was founded in 1908. As his father was interested in the Boy Scouts movement is it not more likely that the father was the founder and the son a founder member, given his age.

 

There is no mention of either in this report that appeared in the edition of the East Anglian Daily Times dated 31 December 1909 - but Roland could well have been attending London University or one of the organisation associated with it.

 

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

 

Quite a "character", I noted this in relation to his first world war career from a blogpost.

 

Raven-Hart attended the University of London as a member of the Officer Training Corps. During World War One, he was wounded in Egypt and convalesced at a hospital there. In 1919, he was given the O.B.E. for “valuable services rendered.” Raven-Hart served as a signalling officer, and an expert in semaphores. As early as 1915, while a Captain, he wrote a booklet The Signalling Instructor, with “notes on teaching of semaphore, Morse and station work, with Morse practice tables, and an appendix on the system of signalling in use in the French, Belgian, German and Austrian armies.” His facility with foreign languages and expertise in code served him well. He worked in the British intelligence department, where he befriended T. E. Lawrence

http://brookspeters.blogspot.com/2012/06/cruising-with-major.html

 

The London University Roll of Honour listing those serving who were "Appointed and Recognised Teachers, Graduates and Matriculated Students", published in 1918, is searchable online here https://london.ac.uk/senate-house-library/our-collections/special-collections/archives-manuscripts/university-of-london-military-service-1914-1945

However unless I am mistake, Roland is not listed.

 

The London University O.T.C. Roll of Honour, published 1921, can be downloaded from the same webpage. He has several entries, mainly concerned with the two MiD mentions. His personal entry like the others is very brief but makes no mention of which part of the University he was attached to or from which academic institution he joined the University - which had been by main hope as a way to track him down on the earlier censuses :-(

(Image courtesy of the University of London).

 

Other relevant snippets from the blogpost linked to above.

The family returned to England shorty after the birth of Roland. "Shortly" unfortunately is a subjective term - I'm not finding them on the 1891 Census of England & Wales and the 1891 Census of Ireland no longer exists. A clergy list may help by stating where his father was serving during this time. (Edit - posted by @BarbaraG above - our posts crossed)

 

Raven-Hart was married in Edmonton in 1916 to a woman his age named Mary R. Croft. The marriage of a Roland J. M. Raven-Hart to a Mary R. Croft in the Edmonton District does appear in the GRO index in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1916. There are no obvious children of this couple recorded in England & Wales.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

Edited 16 March , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[George Rayner]

Thanks everybody for your help and expertise. As always much appreciated.

 

If his medal card says first served in Egypt in 1918

7 hours ago, PRC said:

As early as 1915, while a Captain, he wrote a booklet The Signalling Instructor,

acknowledged that it isn't a quote from PRC. and 10th Battalion Suffolk Regiment wasn't an active service battalion so may this have been while on home service with the signalling booklet.

 

And yes the puzzle is which one of either William Roland or Roland James Milleville founded the Scout group!

 

Thanks again. Anything else you come across gratefully received

 

George

[Allan1892]

An article in the The Halesworth Times, Southwold and General Advertiser published on 9 January 1912 ends by reporting 'The Scouts had been admirably trained by Scoutmaster W R Raven-Hart' - this would suggest (to me at least) that it was the Rev. W R Raven-Hart who founded the Fressingfield Scouts.

Image courtesy of Find My Past

[Allan1892]

Whilst searching the British Newspaper via FMP, I came across a short article in the Norfolk News (published on the 25 December 1909) entitled 'Harleston Territorials'. The article names a number of men that were present that night and on the seventh line down mentions 'Mr Raven Hart' -- this may be Roland J M Raven Hart.

 

Image courtesy of FMP

[PRC]

50 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

The article names a number of men that were present that night and on the seventh line down mentions 'Mr Raven Hart' -- this may be Roland J M Raven Hart.

 

The name before Mr Raven Hart is Second Lieutenant S.H.N. Coxon - who is also mentioned later as personally persuading four new recruits to sign up, so not a "shrinking violet".

 

Presumably the same Lieutenant Coxon who helped give out the badges to the Fressingfield Scouts in December 1909.

 

On 16/03/2021 at 12:09, PRC said:

There is no mention of either in this report that appeared in the edition of the East Anglian Daily Times dated 31 December 1909 - but Roland could well have been attending London University or one of the organisation associated with it.

 

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

 

An evening of toast and song may indeed indicate that it was the son rather than the father that was in attendance when the Harleston Territorials had their meeting.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[George Rayner]

Thanks again.

 

Reverend WJ Raven-Hart was in 6th Battalion Suffolk Regiment during WW1 but whether he had involvement before the conflict I have not managed to discover. I have found a reference that RJM Raven-Hart was in forces from 1911 and I have asked for references to check that out.

 

Yes Peter the younger one would seem most likely to have been involved with toast and song I think

 And the link with Lt Coxon may be worthy of some investigation

 

George

[George Rayner]

Further research has brought forth  conundrum!

 

As above his medal card says that first theatre of war was Egypt in 1918

 

However Forces War Records has this

 

First Name: Roland James Milleville

Initials: R

Surname: Raven-Hart

Nationality: Indian

Rank: Temporary Major

Rank (2nd): Acting Major

Gazette Info: 6925

Gazette Date: 03/06/1919

Duty Location: Operations in Egypt, including Sollum, at the engagement at Agagir on 26/2/1916

Service: Indian Army

Regiment: Indian Medical Service

 

with a date of 26/2/1916 and I am guessing that his nationality of Indian is a transcription error for Irish (where he was born).

 

Was he a Doctor?

 

George

[PRC]

Unfortunately you are depending on someone elses transcription and sadly for me at least the source is not one to be trusted.

 

The relevant mention in Despatches appears to be in the Third Supplement of the London Gazette of the 3rd June 1919, which was actually published on the 5th June.

The link to his names appearance on page 7183 was posted by @Matlock1418 in his post last Tuesday.

 

On 16/03/2021 at 08:23, Matlock1418 said:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31383/supplement/7183

 

 The start of the list is on page 7171.

 

" War Office 5th June 1919

 

The following despatch has been received by the Secretary of State for War from General Sir E.H. H. Allenby, G.C.B., G.C.M.G.,Commander-in-Chief, Egyptian Expeditionary Force:-

 

General Headquarters

5th March, 1919.

 

Sir,

 

I have the honour to forward herewith a list of Officers, Nurses, Other Ranks and Civilians, whom I consider worthy of mention for their services during the period from the 19th September, 1918, to the 31st January, 1919."

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31383/supplement/7171

 

All the names listed from page 7171 to 7183, (and beyond), all relate to that original introduction.

 

His first MiD appeared in the Second Supplement to the London Gazette of the 21st January 1919 which was published on the 22nd January 1919. His name is on page 1157. General Allenby's preamble is on page 1147 and is pretty much identical in tone, except the dates covered are from the 16th March 1918 to the 18th September 1918.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31138/page/1147

 

In none of the appearances that I came across for him, including these London Gazette ones, is his name followed by any of the letters that would indicate a qualified physician. It would also seem at odds with his subsequent career as an engineer, (with a bit of authorship and journalism thrown in for good measure ).

 

The Page 6925 reference for the Mention in Despatches quoted by Forces War Records is actually for the award of his M.B.E.

 

The reference to him being Indian is probably just a generalisation, nit a mistale for Irish. When the CWGC first went online, for example, there used to be a field called "Nationality". According to this everyone who died serving in an Indian Army unit was an Indian - including the British Nationals who made up a significant part of the Officer Corps. Now on CWGC the field is labelled Country of Service, probably in recognition of what a crass over-generalisation the reference to it being nationality had been !

 

So personally I would treat the Forces War Records information at this point with a great deal of scepticism. The introduction to the MiD notifications would seem to support the Medal Index Card date of 1918.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[George Rayner]

Thanks everso much PRC. I have a great deal of 'fear' over FWR as I have been misled several times previously.

 

With your Norfolk experience, knowledge and resources is there anywhere to find out if he was in Norfolk Regiment-Volunteer Battalions(?) before 1914? Perhaps associated with a Lt S N H Coxon who appears to have lived my side of the border but they appear to have a link.

 

He is a troublesome individual!

 

George

[PRC]

On 20/03/2021 at 06:46, George Rayner said:

With your Norfolk experience, knowledge and resources

You silver tongued devil

 

I think with this a lot of it comes down to time line.

 

The Pension record card gives us a date of birth of the 13th November 1889.  Roland was born in Ireland at Glen Alla, and seems to have come to England with his family in 1892 when his father William became senior curate of Scarborough.

 

There is no obvious match on the 1901 & 1911 Censuses of England – the logical assumption is that he was at a boarding school as he was not with his parents, (1901 at Snaith, 1911 at Fressingfield).

 

Just in case I checked out his paternal grandparents, John James Raven, born Boston, Lincolnshire c1833 and Fanny Raven, born Botesdale, Suffolk  c1835.  In 1901 they were away from the Vicarage, Fressingfield on the night of the census, but other adult children were in residence. The couple were to be found boarding in Beccles but there was no Roland with them. (Incidentally on the 1881 Census of England & Wales, John, a Doctor of Divinity, was recorded as the Headmaster of Great Yarmouth Grammar School)

John James Raven died in 1906 – the 1906 Probate Calendar shows the 20th September 1906.

His widow, an elderly unmarried niece and a servant were recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living at Hill House, Starston, Harleston, Norfolk – but again no likely match for Roland.

 

Rolands’ mother, Edith Hester Maria O’Neil Raven-Hart, was born in County Donegal, so it’s likely his maternal grandparents would be on the relevants Censuses of Ireland. The 1911 Census of England & Wales states the couple have been 22 years. The marriage of a William Roland Raven to an Edith Hester O.N. Fairbrother was recorded in the Woolwich District of London in Q1 1889. But so far I couldn’t find a candidate for Ediths’ parent and so can’t look to see if Roland was recorded with them.

 

Given the family links to Fressingfield there must be a possibility that young Roland must have visited his paternal grandparents – probably on school holidays – and so was known in the area even before his father took over the incumbency, presumably late in 1906, (the grandfathers will was proved November 8 1906), or early 1907.

 

Assuming he stayed at boarding school until he was 18, (13th November 1907) and possibly left at Christmas, although more likely the summer of 1908, the time constraints about being involved in forming the local scout groups and \or joining the Militia for the last few months of it’s existence or the Territorial Force when it was came into existence are set in part by what he did next – did he go to University, and if so, where and when.

 

His father William was a graduate of Emmanuel College, Cambridge, so Roland could have got in there as a Pensioner, (i.e. son of a graduate), but appears not to have done so, or at least he doesn’t appear on the “Cambridge Univesity War List” of those who served.

https://archive.org/stream/warlistofunivers00careuoft/warlistofunivers00careuoft_djvu.txt

 

We know he served with the University London O.T.C, but we currently don’t know when. And he is not on the list of those serving who were "Appointed and Recognised Teachers, Graduates and Matriculated Students", published in 1918. So how did he become a member of the O.T.C. without ticking any of those boxes? The relevance is that he might still have been resident at Fressingfield until a much later date. When he was commissioned in the 10th Battalion, Suffolk Regiment, effective  26th October 1914, there is no reference to him being a serving or former member of the O.T.C. in the London Gazette.

 

The University of London O.T.C. Roll of Honour states the O.T.C. came into being on the 7th January 1909 and between then and the outbreak of war it had 2,081 members. A significant number of colleges, many outside London, that were not entitled  to award degrees in their own right had their qualifications issued by the University.

 

One other potential avenue as to what he was up to pre-war is the 1913 & 1914 Electoral registers – he would have reached 24 in November 1913 and so if he was a householder he would have been entitled to the vote.

 

On 20/03/2021 at 06:46, George Rayner said:

is there anywhere to find out if he was in Norfolk Regiment-Volunteer Battalions(?) before 1914?

 

We can only really be talking about the Territorial Force given Rolands’ age. If he did join in the ranks in 1908 for four years, then I’m not sure what the position was on accepting recruits from outside the county, plus there was the added difficulty of him completing the minimum number of drill nights if he was going to be away from home studying at a place of higher education. It would have been simpler if he was an Officer as the attendance requirement seems to have been less strict. However neither he or Coxon appear in the list of exVolunteer Battalions officers who were appointed into the 4th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment  from the 1st April 1908.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28195/page/8170/data.pdf

I then did some more digging – Second Lieutenant Stephen Howard Neale Coxon actually initially moved over from the Militia to the 5th Battalion when the Territorial Force came into being.

He subsequently transferred to the 4th Battalion on the 20th May 1909.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28264/page/4866/data.pdf

 

The birth of Stephen Howard N. Coxon was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Wisbech District of Cambridgeshire in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1885, so he was 4 years older than Roland Raven-Hart. On the 1891 Census of England & Wales the 5 year old Stephen H. N Coxon, born Wisbech, was recorded in the household of his widowed Grandfather, Thomas Neale, a man of Independent Means, who was living in a Private House on Wisbech Road, Emneth, Norfolk. He was probably recorded twice as there also appears to be a 5 year old Stephen H. “A” Coxon recorded living at 4 York Row, Wisbech. This was the household of his parents, Stephen A.T., (aged 31, a Surgeon Dentist, L.D.P. , R.C.S, born Lichfield, Staffordshire – and who incidentally also served in the 5th Battalion, ending up as a Major) and Florence A., (aged 28, born Emneth, Norfolk). The couple also have a daughter Florence,(3) and a son Arthur C.M., (aged 2 – probably the Captain Arthur Cedric Meers Coxon of the 1/5th Norfolks who was captured by the Turks in the disasterous attack at Anafata Plain on the 12th August 1915).  By the time of the 1901 Census the 15 year old Stephen H N Coxon, born Wisbech, was recorded boarding at Abingdon Grammar School, Oxfordshire. And moving on to the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 25 year old Stephen Howard Neale Coxon, an unmarried Farmer, was head of the household at The Lawn House, Fressingfield. His unmarried sister Florence has moved in with him as a his Housekeeper. On the night of the census their parents are recorded as visitors.

 

However it seems farming was not for him. The edition of the Diss Express dated Friday, October 10, 1913, records the sale the previous Saturday of livestock and machinery & equipment on instruction of Mr. S.H.N. Coxon, in consequence of the farm being let.

 

Lieutenant Stephen H. N Coxon transferred from the 4th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment to the 8th Battalion, The Royal Warwickshire Regiment with effect from the 2nd April 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29117/supplement/3234/data.pdf

 

As to what he did in the war it gets a bit confusing. As a Temporary Captain in the 1/8th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Battalion, an S.H.N. Coxon is noted as receiving a Mention in Despatches in the London Gazette of the 22nd June 1915, (page 5991), according to one Medal Card held on Ancestry.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29200/supplement/5991

 

But the Medal Index Card itself shows Captain Stephen Howard Neale Coxon as Royal Warwickshire Regiment and then 3rd Kings African Rifles. It’s not clear if he was attached, or if any medals were ever issued. There is no contact address on the reverse.

 

The 1923 Probate Calendar records that Stephen Howard Neale Coxon of 47 La Motte Street, Helier, Jersey, died 10th March 1923 at sea. Administration was granted at the London Court on the 23rd July 1923 to Bertha Coxon, widow.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Coxon&yearOfDeath=1923&page=2#calendar

 

So I suspect the connection between Stephen Coxon and Roland Raven-Hart probably stems from the time when one was a farmer and the other the son of the vicar at Fressingfield.

They were relatively close in age and with a background of attending a boarding school - certainly for Stephem, probably for Roland.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

Edited 21 March , 2021 by PRC
Remove duplication

[George Rayner]

Absolutely brilliant as always. Thank you so much for the time and trouble you have taken with this.

 

It confirms many of the thoughts, finds I had had and raises a few more avenues for me to explore. Drax Grammar School contains a Raven-Hart amongst the alumni-or succesful exam candidates so I will follow that as he may have attended while his father was senior curate at Scarborough and vicar at Snaith

 

Thanks again Peter

 

George

[Matlock1418]

On 16/03/2021 at 08:23, Matlock1418 said:

He has a 1939 listing too.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34743/supplement/8025

George,

Whilst finding the above 1939 LG entry, which reads as below:

"GENERAL LIST ... The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.: — ... 9th Oct. 1939: — Maj. Roland James Milleville RAVEN-HART (106255)"

 

I also found this 'namesake' entry in the LG in 1943.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36248/supplement/5031

"TECHNICAL BRANCH. Appointment to commission. As Plt. Offs. on prob. (emergency):— ... Sgts. 1268625 Roland James Milleville Raven HART (142084). 26th Apr. 1943"

Rather puzzled me - but didn't want to raise earlier as seemed a potential red-herring and a bit out of period.

However, now you  have so many mysteries about your fellow you, and others, might as well at least know about it.

I have not explored further.

:-) M

[PRC]

@George Rayner

 

Have you read through the comments on this blogpost https://irishwaterwayshistory.com/people/major-rowland-raven-hart-and-his-canoeing-in-ireland/

which also partially addresses the point made by @Matlock1418

 

The article itself quotes from a 1956 piece in The Journal of the Poynesian Society in which it was said Roland was educated in London, Paris and Berlin.

 

In summary from the comments:-.

 

Raven-Hart’s connection with intelligence in WW1 was in the field of signals intelligence. From April 1918 he commanded ‘2 Wireless Observation Group’ in Egypt – the unit responsible for wireless interception. In WW2 he was commissioned in the army as a 2nd Lieutenant, General List in Sep 1939 and relinquished his commission in March 1940

 

During 1940 he was fined £10 for sending indecent photographs through the post (boys in the nude). Bow-Street Police Court. (Possibly the relinquishing commission is related – he may have jumped prior to the conviction).

 

He next appears serving as Sergeant in the ‘Technical Branch’ of the RAF in Apr 1943, at which point he is commissioned as Pilot Officer in the same branch.

 

(A Pilot Officer is a rank and is no indication that he ever actually got his wings as a pilot).

 

It also identifies his maternal grandparents as James Fairbrother and Margaret Maria Hart of Roscommon. However, still could not find them on the surviving censuses of Ireland, England & Wales.

 

That couple appear to have married at St Peter, Dublin, on the 18th October 1854.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF3-TQK

 

From this family genealogy site it appears the Fairbrothers had connections with both Ireland and Hoxne, Suffolk!

Information specific to James and Maria is –

James Fairbrother, born 29 June 1823 in Kilmain, Roscommon, Ireland; died 04 January 1882 in Aden, Yemen, Arabia.

He married Margaret Maria Hart 18 October 1854 in Dublin, Ireland; born 16 August 1829 in Castlebar, Co. Mayo, Ireland; died 29 May 1873 in

Dublin, Ireland.

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/fairbrother/368/

 

So sadly it would appear that Roland could not have been staying with them at the time of the 1901 & 1911 Censuses as they were no longer alive.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

PS - might be worth a separate thread on 2 Wireless Observation Group, as documentary sources in relation to that may also cast more light on Roland.

Edited 21 March , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[QUEX]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

PS - might be worth a separate thread on 2 Wireless Observation Group, as documentary sources in relation to that may also cast more light on Roland.

There aren't really any that I'm aware of - certainly not a war diary. It makes fleeting appearances in establishments and orders of battle.  It was established in April 1916 as the Special Wireless Section (Egypt) but given the covername of Wireless Press Section.  I can't really add anything to the tale of R-H except to say he appears with others in the Sep 1918 telephone for GHQ Egypt under 'Intelligence(E)' - this was the section of the intelligence staff responsible for signals intelligence, but also effectively the HQ of the Wireless Observation Group.  

 

He is filed in my archives under 'cove, rum, very'.

[PRC]

Thanks for looking @QUEX

 

I was thinking maybe something might have cropped up in connection with T.E. Lawrence - I keep coming across allusions to a personal link between the two as well as intelligence links with Lawrences' Arab Forces but how much reality there was to it I don't know. And of course you never know where the odd snippet might come up in a memoir as the Military Intelligence operation in Egypt seems to have been the hub of British activity all over the Arab world both during the Great War and the subsequent interwar period.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[George Rayner]

Thanks again to Matlock, PRC and Quex. 

 

Family lineage on Irish grandparents new information. Hoxne link through his uncle's wife and mother being cousins (I think I previously asked about Palgrave-Raven in a thread-that's his father's brother.

Interesting to extend beyond the parameters of the forum just to clarify WW2 situation as well. That looks complex-need his records I think to really sort him out.

 

And 

10 hours ago, QUEX said:

He is filed in my archives under 'cove, rum, very'.

is a good way to sum him up.

 

I need to ask my French friend if he can search for RJM in Paris 1900 to 1916 I think.

 

Much obliged to you all for interest and help

 

George

[George Rayner]

Matlock

Why does he have different numbers ascribed to him?

 

9th Oct. 1939: — Maj. Roland James Milleville RAVEN-HART (106255)

Sgts. 1268625 Roland James Milleville Raven HART (142084)

 

Thanks

George

[Matlock1418]

 

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Why does he have different numbers ascribed to him?

 

9th Oct. 1939: — Maj. Roland James Milleville RAVEN-HART (106255)

Sgts. 1268625 Roland James Milleville Raven HART (142084)

I can't explain in full [probably nowhere near in full! ;-/]

Although regimental numbers for OR had been dropped shortly after the GW in favour of service numbers for OR and officers then given service numbers too,

OR and Officers had separate service number runs.

OR who got commissioned got a [replacement] number as an officer.

[Until at least the 1980s, possibly longer - in the late 20th C. the more numerous OR had eight digit numbers and the officers, being fewer, had six-digit numbers. It continued that OR who got commissioned would have originally an OR's eight-digit number and then later an officer's six-digit number as a replacement.

Nowadays I believe latest Army personnel only have a single eight-digit service number which follows them wherever they go, regardless of rank and/or commissioning, for all their service - as for the oldest very, very highest ranks nowadays I am not privy!]

So that would seem to largely explain R-H's officer's 106255 [2 Lt] in 1939 [to 2 May 1940 when he relinquished his commission as a 2 Lt. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34813/supplement/1625] and the apparently later OR 1268625 [Sgt - how, and why, he got this number and particular rank I am not aware]

The 1943 officer's 142084 [Plt. Off] was R-H's later Technical Branch number - which he kept until 11 Dec. 1946 when he again relinquished his commission, from the Technical Branch, retaining the rank of Flt. Lt. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37827/supplement/6246

:-) M

Edited 22 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
added LG links