Remount Regiment

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi 

 

His son, Dennis Clifford MC also served and was KIA 24th March 1918,

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1586265/DENNIS CLIFFORD O'RORKE/

 

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19180423.2.57

 

His other son Maurice Heaton, was reported serving in the 12th Lancers and recuperating from one of his three wounds at the time of his fathers death. I cant find an MIC though. Maurice lived till he was 80, dying in 1974

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205386589

 

Third son, Brian became an architect and interior designer

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_O'Rorke

 

Fourth son, Forbes O'Rourke died in a later conflict

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2240487/FORBES O'RORKE/

 

Hope this adds

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 March , 2021 by Swinesheadvillage
Update

[Matlock1418]

Memorial inscription on O'RORKE family grave (Cecilia Mary & George Maurice O'Rorke):  Waikaraka Cemetery, Onehunga, Auckland, New Zealand

Not the best of composite screen photo snips but an intro.

Edited Images courtesy Find a Grave - Added by Sandy 2008

For the better original imaging in two parts, see with other photos  https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28276629/edward-dennis-o'rorke

 

Image courtesy Find a Grave - Added by Sandy 2008

 

:-) M

 

[Matlock1418]

It appears that Edward Dennis O'Rorke had quite a distinguished father in Sir Maurice O'Rorke https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Maurice_O'Rorke 

:-) M

 

[Roderick Hutchison]

I would like to thank one and all for your knowledge and help. I really feel quite an amateur in this 

[sleste1]

A very interesting thread...

By coincidence, the Leicestershire and  Rutland Family History Society have recently been contacted regarding a burial for Edward Dennis O’Rorke. We are struggling to locate this record at present (odd, as most county burials have been transcribed by Find My Past).

However, we do know that he was buried in the churchyard in Sysonby. We have an Index of Memorial Inscriptions listing him but can’t access the full details at the moment as our Research Centre is closed. There are a number of photographs of the church online. 

 

 

Edited 19 March , 2021 by sleste1

[Roderick Hutchison]

Hi 

Have asked the Military Records Office. To date no response. Must be lockdown feaver!

R

[Matlock1418]

WORLD WAR 1 WAR MEMORIAL IN THE ROYAL AND ANCIENT GOLF CLUB OF ST. ANDREWS

IN HONOUR OF BOTH MEMBERS AND STAFF WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR COUNTRY

 

Left panel [With Mr. Edward Dennis O'Rorke, Remount Service]

Centre panel

Right panel

Photographs courtesy of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club, St. Andrews - with thanks

Photos posted on behalf of Roderick Hutchison.

:-) M

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

Burial - St. Leonard's Churchyard, Sysonby

 

Photos courtesy of Sysonby Parish Admin and a member(s) from St Leonard's Church - with very many thanks to the church member(s) for these photos and for seeking out his burial register number and description of location of the grave:

From their reply:

“I have been and looked at this grave. It is situated on the 7^th row on the left hand side of the actual church yard. Attached are a couple of pictures of the stone - a tall stone column surmounted by a Celtic cross standing on a stone plinth inscribed with the words ‘In loving memory of Edward Dennis O’Rorke, born March 4 1865, died December 9th 1918. Thy will be done’. According to our records the plot was purchased by a person living at Christchurch, New Zealand, the funeral taking place in December 1918. Our records also show that Amy Cecilia O’Rorke was also interred in the grave on 1.8.1986."

Also later:

“The plot number of the O’Rorke grave according to the burial book, is 120 but this does not help with locating the grave as there is no known accurate grave plan in being as the ancient churchyard is now a closed cemetery. 

However, entering the churchyard via the main double gate, on the left hand side looking towards the church on row no. 7 that is where the O’Rorke grave is situated;  it is the only grave on that row that is marked with a Celtic cross so is easily identifiable.  On the same row there are also adjacent graves in the names of Pryor and Meadwell along with a number of unmarked plots. The O’Rorke grave is situated on the West side of the church; the only door to the church is on the South side.”

= Very many thanks indeed.

Image courtesy of Google StreetView - The O'Rorke grave with its Celtic cross grave headstone appears to be slightly left of centre of shot, in line with the base of the most prominent tree to the left of the church from this viewpoint.

 

Image courtesy of Google - The O'Rorke grave in centre of shot

 

[For Amy Cecilia O’Rorke, his daughter, see:

Name:                                            Year of Birth:  

O'RORKE, AMY  CECILIA                1896  

GRO Reference:  DOR  Q3/1986 in KENSINGTON AND CHELSEA  (2391A)  Volume 13  Page 1448]

 

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

On 11/03/2021 at 01:23, Matlock1418 said:

Anyone found:

= His inquest?

Enquiries of The Record Office for Leicestershire, Leicester & Rutland recently received this reply:

"I have checked the indexes for the inquest that you have requested without success I’m afraid. A lot of the inquests for the period you are looking at did not survive."

And then a further one:

"The Record Office is closed at the moment.  We are hopefully opening to staff at the end of the month.  At this time, I will be able to see if we have the inquest available for you."

Findings awaited with interest - fingers-crossed!

 

Meantime newspaper reports offer quite a lot of detail, including on his injuries, treatment, attendance by wife and daughter (Amy Cecelia), circumstances of death and burial - Expanding on previous posts here are fuller articles:

 

Leicester Daily Post - 11 Dec 1918

 

Image courtesy of

 

Grantham Journal - 14 Dec 1918

 

Image courtesy of 

 

It is to be noted that it seems Mr O'Rorke died about a week later than his accident on Monday, 2 December = Dying approx. Monday, 9, or Tuesday, 10, December 1918.

With burial Thursday, 12 December 1918 officiated by the Vicar, the Rev Canon Blakeney.

It is also to be noted on his grave memorial that 9 December 1918 is recorded

It certainly seems his Death Certificate is required to clarify his date of death - The OP @Roderick Hutchison has indicated to me that he has ordered from the GRO - we await with interest.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Whilst we wait - here is a rather less grim newspaper report of Mr O'Rorke's 1898 marriage to Miss Amy Clifford Rhodes:

 

Image courtesy of FMP - NZ Mail 1898

from the date of the report I estimate they were married Wednesday 26 Jan 1898.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

And whilst we wait - perhaps GWF pals can further help with the location of and/or a map(s)/plan(s) and/or photo(s) of:

= 5th Army Remount Depot, Sysonby - Where Mr O'Rorke had his riding accident.

[I feel it must perhaps have been close to the current/modern Defence Animal Training Centre of the Defence Animal Training Regiment at Melton Mowbray - but exactly where?]

= Melbourne Lodge - Where he appears to have died.

??

In hope.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Posting on behalf of Roderick, the OP.

Death Certificate of Mr Edward Dennis O'Rorke

Confirms date of death as 9 Dec. 1918 [as his grave] and many other details as reported in the newspapers

Image courtesy of the GRO - and thanks to Roderick for obtaining.

:-) M

 

[Matlock1418]

All,

The good news is that CWGC have now helpfully got back to me - having checked to see if Mr O'Rorke had previously been considered.

The bad news is that, after initial thoughts he might perhaps be, as a civilian he wasn't/isn't eligible after all.

[Not withstanding he seems to have been at work for the Army, and likely on Army grounds, when he met his riding accident which subsequently proved fatal].

 

CWGC's e-mail explains:

"Thank you for your email regarding Mr Edward Dennis O'Rorke who is not commemorated by the CWGC.

 Further to your enquiry, whilst we do record those First World War civilians who were members of specified auxiliary organisations, generally they must have died overseas while employed with the armed forces or from wounds inflicted while serving overseas. According to the information you have provided, Mr O'Rorke was a civilian employee who sadly died as a result of an accident at a Remount depot in the UK and therefore unfortunately would not meet the eligibility criteria for commemoration. A copy of the criteria and a list of eligible auxiliary organisations can be found on our website by clicking on the following link: https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf 

I am sorry for the disappointing reply, however thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding this casualty and for your interest in the work of the CWGC."

 

So would seem he was/would be/is to be treated like so many other civilians, engaged in war work in the UK, who had a fatal accident at work.

 

Roderick,

Does seems a bit harsh for Mr O'Rorke but your initial efforts have probably resulted in a much better and fuller commemoration for him - both by your enquiry of the R&A and here on GWF.

Thanks for bringing him to everyone's attention.

:-) M

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for bringing him to everyone's attention.

agreed, and well done M for trying with CWGC.

charlie

[Matlock1418]

On 14/04/2021 at 12:39, charlie962 said:

well done M for trying with CWGC.

Charlie, Thanks, but you flatter me far too much!

I only asked CWGC if Mr O'Rorke had ever been considered for commemoration - but CWGC seemed to have anticipated matters in their reply above.

As no formal request for commemoration has been made - in the future any other person may perhaps try if they wish.

 

Another loose end that has now come back home to roost - a check with the Leicestershire & Rutland Record Office for Mr O'Rorke's Inquest report.

Two searches by different people there have failed to find an Inquest report, it being thought destroyed = Many thanks go to L&R RO for searching.

 

So we are left with the quite detailed and seemingly likely accurate newspaper reporting, see above, to fill in a number of details such as:

Major Samuel George Sanders of Melbourne Lodge and officer commanding the Army Remount Depot, Sysonby giving evidence.

Also Dr R Hilton Fagge, Dr Bolton Carter and Dr Furness attending Mr O'Rorke, with additional details on his injuries & treatment.

And that the Inquest was performed by Mr A H Marsh (Coroner) etc.

 

It now pretty much seems the only main remaining queries are the accurate location of Melbourne Lodge, Sysonby and the Remount Depot itself.

I hope somebody can please further help with these.

:-) M

Edited 16 April , 2021 by Matlock1418

[sleste1]

Have found a photograph of part of Melbourne Lodge, together with a map indicating its position in Sysonby.

 

In addition, this information -

The army seized Melbourne Lodge stud farm for thoroughbred horses in 1912 and used it as an Army Remount Depot. Major E.G.Tomblins was in charge before retiring in 1916. It was still in use for this purpose in 1925 when Major Samuel G. Sanders was in charge. 

 

Search Service 

LRFHS 

[sleste1]

In addition, a postcard of Bailey Hotel, South Kensington which Edward O’Rourke had as his address at the time of his accident/death.

 

Search Service

Leicestershire and Rutland Family History Society 

 

[Matlock1418]

 

15 hours ago, sleste1 said:

Have found a photograph of part of Melbourne Lodge, together with a map indicating its position in Sysonby.

LRFHS,

Thank you ever so much for this map and photo of Melbourne Lodge.

Checking on Google Maps and its StreetView, Melbourne Lodge certainly isn't there today [on Sysonby Road/close to the east of the north end of Sysonby Grange Road, upon which is St Leonard's Churchyard and the location of Mr O'Rorkes grave] and although the site is now domestic housing there is a cul de sac now named Melbourne Drive.

It was near/to the east of the entrance to the current Defence Animal Training Centre which now appears to have a sign pointing into DATC indicating the present day "Remount Barracks" - plus ça change!

 

15 hours ago, sleste1 said:

 

The army seized Melbourne Lodge stud farm for thoroughbred horses in 1912 and used it as an Army Remount Depot. Major E.G.Tomblins was in charge before retiring in 1916. It was still in use for this purpose in 1925 when Major Samuel G. Sanders was in charge. 

It is interesting to note Major Samuel G[eorge] Sanders was still there in 1925.

= Please, out of more general interest, where is such historical information on the Remount Depot, Sysonby now to be found?

 

15 hours ago, sleste1 said:

In addition, a postcard of Bailey Hotel, South Kensington which Edward O’Rourke had as his address at the time of his accident/death.

Thank you for this interesting extra image of Bailey's Hotel, South Kensington.

It is to be noted that his daughter Amy Cecelia O'Rorke later died in Kensington, in 1986.

 

I hope this thread has been of interest/value to LRFHS too.

:-) M

 

[sleste1]

Yes, Melbourne Lodge was demolished some time ago. Local enquiries have failed to find any other photographs of the building.

 

The only reference to the Remount Depot was found here.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LEI/Sysonby

 

Yes, an interesting research challenge and pleased to have added some extra information. We have not been able to check sources at our Resource Centre, as still under lockdown.

[sleste1]

Would be interested to know where the burial/parish records for Sysonby actually are as we have been unable to track them down ! Leicestershire Record Office or still at the church (as someone suggested to us).

 

Thanks

Sue

LRFHS 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, sleste1 said:

The only reference to the Remount Depot was found here.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LEI/Sysonby

Thank you - rather a shame no source(s) cited.

 

1 hour ago, sleste1 said:

Would be interested to know where the burial/parish records for Sysonby actually are as we have been unable to track them down ! Leicestershire Record Office or still at the church (as someone suggested to us).

I approached both Parish Admin / St Leonard's church.  Got my answer from Sysonby Parish Admin but church member(s) had been involved with getting the photos and the plot no. 

I think the record probably must be at the church.

Many thanks to all involved.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Another piece of the jigsaw has come home to roost - The Burial Register entry for Mr. O'Rorke - Entry No. 165, found on page 21 - Buried 12 December 1918.

 

Abstracted images - Original full image courtesy of the Record Office for Leicestershire, Leicester & Rutland Long Street, Wigston Magna, Leicester, LE18 2AH - with many thanks.

:-) M

 

 

[Roderick Hutchison]

Many thanks Mat. Avweath of information out there. Just getting it can be a challenge!

[Matlock1418]

Hi @FROGSMILEand others,

Further to this matter which I offered in another thread about Remounts - as suggested there, a return to this thread ...

• What did civilians, and Mr. O'Rorke in particular, do for Remounts and how did they fit into and work with this military organisation?

When looking at Remounts one most commonly reads about the military side of operations with little mention of the civilians who also worked there.

In at least one source [re: the Ormskirk depot] it has been suggested that some civilians did indeed become became militarised within the Remounts - turned into soldiers [probably not that unsurprising for those of military age, especially after the MSA I would guess.] - but not all it would seem [many minor roles being undertaken by civilians - but I can't recall comment on likely more senior roles]

I therefore wonder in general about civilians in Remounts, and especially those who later remained as civilians [across the UK].

In particular how, apparently as a civilian volunteer, Mr. O'Rorke fitted into Remounts - especially at No. 3  Army Remounts at Sysonby, Melton Mowbray, prior to his ultimately fatal riding accident there just after the war.  Especially as:

• His father, Sir Maurice O'Rorke, had previously been Speaker of the NZ House of Representatives [so a bit of associated background kudos]
• He apparently had previously had dealings with the King's horses [for which he must have had necessary experience and gained personal kudos]
• He was working  in his late 40s/early 50s [experience and enhanced gravitas associated with age - though over normal military service age]
• He was a member of the Royal & Ancient at St Andrews [a rather selective golf club also suggesting he moved in rather higher circles than most]
• He was variously described in the newspapers as Remount Superintendent / Superintendent of Remounts (Officers' Chargers) / Army Remounts Inspector - though apparently still a civilian [according to the press reports].

All tend to suggest some level of likely deference to him - Not least also in the detailed press coverage on his accident, treatment, death and inquest etc.

The titles of Superintendent and Inspector appear in military terminology in other sources for Remounts - as senior appointments.

= So I might presume Mr. O'Rorke was likely to have been bit more than a basic civilian 'jockey' who just 'test-rode' horses.

Therefore particularly wondering about his likely role and position fitting into this essentially military-run establishment.  Function and chains of command, etc.

I hope that you may perhaps be able to offer some enlightenment, generally and specifically.  Thanks.

:-) M

Edited 1 September , 2021 by Matlock1418
spelling!

[FROGSMILE]

Unlike others he does not appear to have been enlisted into the Army Remount Service and he certainly wasn’t commissioned.  Ergo there’s no evidence that he wore uniform.  He seems to have been a specialist civil servant with a high grade, i.e. inspector, under contract to the war office.  It would have given him managerial authority as a type of ‘consultant’, in his case regarding prime horseflesh and advising on suitability as military remounts.  Similarly there seem to have been civilian veterinary assistants too.  It all enabled the war office to make use of useful experience without necessarily obliging everyone to be in uniform.

Edited 1 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE